New Rail Study
#76
Russ Bellinis Wrote:I think it is interesting that sometime during the 1960's or 1970's, I think when LBJ was president, but I'm not sure, the government decided that we did not need ships to transport war materials any longer. We could fly everything in with jumbo jets. Then we needed to resupply Israel after one of their wars in the mid 1980's. It took over 60 days, if I remember correctly, to do the job. The problem was not that we couldn't fly everything in, it was that we could not get the planes on the ground, unloaded, and back in the air quickly enough. We ended up with a backlog of planes "flying the pattern" waiting for landing space. Sea Land was replacing their steam powered SL-7 ships with more economical but slower diesel ships. The government bought the SL-7's, retrofitted them with ramps to convert them into roll-on/roll-off operation and put them in service with the Navy. One SL-7 could haul as much tonnage as all of the aircraft flew into Israel in 60 days in one load and get it anywhere in the world and unloaded in less the 20 days! You would have thought we would have learned something from the Berlin Air lift in the early 1950's!

Russ,Troop ships no longer fit into the military plans.The word now and has been air mobile...You can deploy air bourne and the air cav divisions faster in any area in a matter of a few days complete with air and armor support.
Larry
Engineman

Summerset Ry

Make Safety your first thought, Not your last!  Safety First!
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#77
Brakie Wrote:
Russ Bellinis Wrote:I think it is interesting that sometime during the 1960's or 1970's, I think when LBJ was president, but I'm not sure, the government decided that we did not need ships to transport war materials any longer. We could fly everything in with jumbo jets. Then we needed to resupply Israel after one of their wars in the mid 1980's. It took over 60 days, if I remember correctly, to do the job. The problem was not that we couldn't fly everything in, it was that we could not get the planes on the ground, unloaded, and back in the air quickly enough. We ended up with a backlog of planes "flying the pattern" waiting for landing space. Sea Land was replacing their steam powered SL-7 ships with more economical but slower diesel ships. The government bought the SL-7's, retrofitted them with ramps to convert them into roll-on/roll-off operation and put them in service with the Navy. One SL-7 could haul as much tonnage as all of the aircraft flew into Israel in 60 days in one load and get it anywhere in the world and unloaded in less the 20 days! You would have thought we would have learned something from the Berlin Air lift in the early 1950's!

Russ,Troop ships no longer fit into the military plans.The word now and has been air mobile...You can deploy air bourne and the air cav divisions faster in any area in a matter of a few days complete with air and armor support.

Then why did we need a fleet of ships for up to six months to prepare for Desert Storm I? The actual truth is that aircraft can deploy troops, but not the armor and enormous logistical requirements necessary to support a modern military force, nor can they move anything into a hostile air zone. For example, there aren't enough aircraft in the world to provide the fuel requirements for our forces in the Middle East - tankers are required on a constant schedule. The same goes for ammunition and any other high density bulk supply.
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#78
MountainMan Wrote:Then why did we need a fleet of ships for up to six months to prepare for Desert Storm I? The actual truth is that aircraft can deploy troops, but not the armor and enormous logistical requirements necessary to support a modern military force, nor can they move anything into a hostile air zone. For example, there aren't enough aircraft in the world to provide the fuel requirements for our forces in the Middle East - tankers are required on a constant schedule. The same goes for ammunition and any other high density bulk supply.

I didn't say supply ships..I said troop ships..

You can deploy airborne and air cav in divisions strength by air and then supply by air..Your air power will machine gun enemy troops,smash their tanks,bomb artillery and troop fortifications.

All the airborne and air cav needs to do is sit up a perimeter and LZ for supplies(ammo,water,rations) and reinforcements..

When I was in the Air Cav 90% of our training was base on emergency deployments to hostile territories with minimum basic supplies-that means our field pack,gas mask,weapon and 250 rounds of ammo..Supplies was air dropped by C141 or by Chinook after we secured a LZ.Our main fire support was air strikes and the company's mortar platoon.
Larry
Engineman

Summerset Ry

Make Safety your first thought, Not your last!  Safety First!
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#79
Well, my own experience is admittedly limited to serving in the 101st Airborne, the 11th Air Assault Division which developed and tested the concepts you refer to and the Cav in 'Nam - oh, and I have actually travelled aboard troop ships to and from Korea. To the best of my knowledge, airpower alone has never won anything.

But if you say so... 8-)
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#80
MountainMan Wrote:Well, my own experience is admittedly limited to serving in the 101st Airborne, the 11th Air Assault Division which developed and tested the concepts you refer to and the Cav in 'Nam - oh, and I have actually travelled aboard troop ships to and from Korea. To the best of my knowledge, airpower alone has never won anything.

But if you say so... 8-)


During Desert Storm air power ruled the battlefield and cleared the way for our armour-a modern German Blitzkrieg.

Basically we neutralized the Iraqi air force and then our air power smash their armour and bomb and strife troop emplacements 24/7..

During my 6 years in the Army I did a tour in 'Nam,a tour in Korea and my last overseas tour was in Germany-I was flown to all duty stations----usually in the middle of the night. Wallbang
Larry
Engineman

Summerset Ry

Make Safety your first thought, Not your last!  Safety First!
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#81
Brakie Wrote:
MountainMan Wrote:Well, my own experience is admittedly limited to serving in the 101st Airborne, the 11th Air Assault Division which developed and tested the concepts you refer to and the Cav in 'Nam - oh, and I have actually travelled aboard troop ships to and from Korea. To the best of my knowledge, airpower alone has never won anything.

But if you say so... 8-)


During Desert Storm air power ruled the battlefield and cleared the way for our armour-a modern German Blitzkrieg.

Basically we neutralized the Iraqi air force and then our air power smash their armour and bomb and strife troop emplacements 24/7..

During my 6 years in the Army I did a tour in 'Nam,a tour in Korea and my last overseas tour was in Germany-I was flown to all duty stations----usually in the middle of the night. Wallbang

Hoo-ah. 8-)
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#82
How many of you have ever seen inside a C-5? It is over three stories tall, and can haul ANYthing! My wife has amazed me with stories about the C-5s being used to haul other aircraft to Desert Storm. Just ask Herc driver!
I only know what I know, and I don't understand very much of it, either.
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#83
sgtcarl1 Wrote:How many of you have ever seen inside a C-5? It is over three stories tall, and can haul ANYthing! My wife has amazed me with stories about the C-5s being used to haul other aircraft to Desert Storm. Just ask Herc driver!


I have!
Even was on load detail, loading up our AH-1s(MZ) Cobra Attack helicopters, as well as some wheeled vehicles, after a nice little vacation at Ft Irwin, for Operation Golden Eagle '84(Yep...We were desert training a whole six years before Desert Storm).
Just for FYI, we could get three Cobras, and four OH58's(Army version of the Bell Jet Ranger) in the lower deck of the C5. We helped load our sister unit's UH60 Blackhawks also, which the C5 could hold two. Got to fly between Ft Hood and Norden AFB in the troop section on the second level. Also saw them unload a MI Abrams Tank from one while at Norden.(The Abrams was unloaded from the C5, we loaded our birds on the same C5)
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