Firestorm at Z's....

[nachoman]

No, they aren't...and that is the whole point. Nor is the forum inhabited by evil aliens or something. And if you look, you will notice that this forum isn't very lively, either.

On the other hand. maybe it is better if you don't go there...

My view is that they are a for-profit forum that makes its money from advertisers. I am not sure how internet advertising works, but it if it like television, the advertising revenues are based upon how much traffic they get. To me, they are like a store that has policies that I fundamentally disagree with. Visiting that site and participating (to me) feels like I am patronizing a store in which I object to. I don't want to condone that restrictive behavior, or want them to be able to charge higher advertising rates because of traffic that I contribute.

As for this site not being lively - that all depends upon how much people want to participate. If you think it is not lively enough, start a new thread, ask a question, contribute, or share your layout or models. I know I haven't contributed much new lately other than replies to existing threads, but that will change as I progress on my layout or other projects. Our structure challenge seems to have ample participants. In a few months there will be over a dozen threads with talented modelers sharing their skills

[MountainMan]

Then don't go, but the obsessive whining about it on this forum is unseemly and unprofessional on the part of all involved.

[ezdays]

Then don't go, but the obsessive whining about it on this forum is unseemly and unprofessional on the part of all involved.

I've just gone through every post here and I see an open discussion about something that's happened on a forum that most of us left a while back. I don't see anyone "whining", I do see a lot of frustration and surprise at what's happened there. If you didn't see some of the threads that were deleted, it would be difficult at best to follow what some people are talking about. If you go to the papermodelers forum, you will find at least six threads there, some with over 100 posts dealing with this issue, and believe me, many of those posts are bordering on way past reasonable rhetoric. People need a venue to vent their feelings and what better place that here about this topic where others understand. I think the discussion here has been reasonable and within the expected limits. I don't think anyone here wants to see Zealot fail, to be sure, there's too much good information there to see it destroyed. Some threads there can never be replaced. So although we may not agree with how things are being done there, we don't want anything to be lost either.

There's not doubt that CG is a for-profit organization, they can't support their network of forums without some source of revenue. They are claiming that Zealot brings in pennies a day. If that's true, it either has to stand on it's own, or some other forum has to make up the shortfall. That's not a happy situation to be in, and whether their new policies will change that has yet to be seen. That makes people a bit nervous about some stuff that's been there for over eight years. The do want to save it and it will take new members to have that happen. Members that don't have memories of how things used to be.

No one here has gotten nasty. No one has bad-mouthed anyone, nor have they gone back and tried to disrupt what's going on there. There are those that have been doing that, but they are not train people from here. Unfortunately, a few people got burned just for saying what they think. So we have people who are voicing their opinions here, and frankly, it's a relatively short discussion considering the enormity of what's happening there. We may not agree with what they're doing, that's obvious otherwise Big Blue wouldn't exist, but we don't wish them bad either and I think this discussion is an exemplary example of that. Remember, I see post by yourself as well and I see nothing "unprofessional" with those or any others. So let people vent for a while more. If things get out of hand, we're here to deal with that issue if and when it happens.

[eightyeightfan1]

Then don't go, but the obsessive whining about it on this forum is unseemly and unprofessional on the part of all involved.

I'm with Don on this one(got your back buddy), we all need a place to vent. Some of us had been over there for years. Its like the house you grew up in, and when you left to go to college, your parents sold it. Well. there's a new owner in our old house, and he just changed our bedroom into a game room, and took down all our Farrah Fawcett posters. Yeah .....We don't like it, but we have to live with it, just not over there.

[Steamtrains]

I was not aware that a hobby should be conducted in a "professional" manner, actually, many of us practice one to leave our professions aside for a while....

And I presume by "all", you include yourself...??

[Sumpter250]

Then don't go, but the obsessive whining about it on this forum is unseemly and unprofessional on the part of all involved.

There is a part of me that agrees, wholeheartedly, with the idea, "quit whining, get over it, go forward from here."
There is a greater part of me that put so much of myself into what is "there", that I don't want to "get over it, and go forward". In many ways it's like selling the house, and leaving the layout, trains and all, . . . . no it's more like having the house taken, sold out from under me, and being forced to leave the trains behind.
Sometimes, we just need to talk things through, and dump "the baggage" those things are part of, before we can begin the "going forward". Sometimes we simply have to have the time and, perhaps more importantly, the place to mourn the loss.
We are your "flawed, and feeling friends", forgive us our humanity.

[MountainMan]

I was under the impression, apparently mistakenly, that everyone came over to this forum because they didn't want to act like the old forum did, but it seems that isn't the case at all. The old forum appears to conduct itself much better than this one. No one goes to the old forum and whines about this one. No one on the old forum denigrates this one.

Don't like the term "unprofessional"? No sweat - choose the one you prefer. How about "impolite" or "unseemly", or "whiny", or just plain "purposeless" and "meaningless" in any context that is remotely positive for this forum.

So let's try another approach - I still belong to the old forum, which contains some expert and very exciting stuff that is markedly absent from this forum. As a member in good standing of the old forum, I don't like the constant openly expressed negative and derogatory attitudes towards it, and this is now a formal complaint. Knocking other forums is not the purpose of this forum, unless somebody is lying.

You left. Get over it and move on.

Is that better? Because it works quite well for me.

[Ralph]

I guess I've said more than once that the community of model railroad forums is a pretty small one really and that anything said on one will probably be noted on another eventually. So I always ask for some caution and thoughtfulness when it comes to comments about other forums.

Still, when we grow accustomed to a forum and invest our time and talents to it we develop an attachment that can leave us feeling angry or even betrayed if we perceive that our beloved place to be has been changed to the point we can no longer enjoy it. Change is hard. I clearly recall that when The Gauge suddenly became part of Zealot (without much other change at that point) some members were even enraged over the name and wondered if they could come to a place called Zealot. Seems like most of us worked through that but then other changes occurred that led many of us to decide to leave there for good.

Not everyone has left, however. Members who participate in both forums should not need to feel that they have to defend one from the other. That puts some of us in an awkward position and makes it more likely that we'll be adversarial with each other here. Of course one can express disapproval over what is perceived to be disrespectful posts about a forum without being disagreeable themselves. Failure to do so only makes one seem interested in continuing conflict for conflict's sake.

Ralph

[Steamtrains]

As some of you are aware, I too still frequent the ol' forum, and enjoy the very same threads mentioned by MMan....But it does anger me to see the crass comercialism and black-boot attitudes of the CEO. I have nothing against the folks who still linger there, and some new ones that come along now and then, although many of them aren't "repeaters"...A lot of "one-time" shows...
I hope it doesn't fail, as mentioned here, there is a lot of our old info there, but I have taken the precaution to rescue my threads, and some of my other favorite threads so they don't just reside "over there"....
BTW...I have also yet to see a denigrating comment here regarding the old forum. To point out "unseemly" attitudes and happenings there is not denigration...it's stating truths.

[eightyeightfan1]

The old forum appears to conduct itself much better than this one. No one goes to the old forum and whines about this one. No one on the old forum denigrates this one.

That's because there's hardly anyone left over at the old place, and there is no reason, or anything that is happening here to complain about over there. If there's anything to complain about over there, that's happening here, its this thread, and then, the people over there already know whats going on.
Besides, we have seen in the last couple of weeks that anybody that speaks out of place over there, or disagrees with what the owners of Zealot are doing immediately gets banned, and then their info gets deleted.
So..If you like it over there, and you see whats happening, Are you going to say anything, or complain about something in the fear that you will get banned?
I don't think so.............

[Sumpter250]

I was under the impression, apparently mistakenly, that everyone came over to this forum because they didn't want to act like the old forum did

I can only speak for myself. I came over to here because I could not, in good conscience, enforce the "new rules". I came over to here, because this forum most closely embodies the things that attracted me to The-Gauge, as it was before it became Zealot. I remained a member there, and still, occasionally stop in, and contribute. I said this once before, and I'll put aside personal tradition, and repeat myself, in the hope that this time we can all take it to heart, have our "conversation" here, and keep the rest of the board free of it.
"Sometimes, we just need to talk things through, and dump "the baggage" those things are part of, before we can begin the "going forward". Sometimes we simply have to have the time and, perhaps more importantly, the place to mourn the loss.
We are your "flawed, and feeling friends", forgive us our humanity."

[Selector]

I came here because Doc Wayne and some others who had pulled the centre pole and tent pegs, crammed it all onto the wagon, hitched up the horses, and set off with the sun at their backs seemed to know what they were doing. I had only spent perhaps a grand total of 2 hours at the other place and didn't feel particularly welcome....can't recall why...it has been so long. In any event, I followed the dust, and have been happy here ever since.

I do agree that it is generally quiet here, perhaps with more happening under the surface as it would when you transplant a tree....the roots have to re-establish themselves before they can nourish what is above the ground. It takes time.

-Crandell

[doctorwayne]

I do agree that it is generally quiet here, perhaps with more happening under the surface as it would when you transplant a tree....the roots have to re-establish themselves before they can nourish what is above the ground. It takes time.

-Crandell

A very apt analogy, Crandell.

Wayne

[MadModeler]

Account still active but the place is pretty quiet. Glad for the invite here. Feels more like home here.

[MountainMan]

On and on it still goes - the only model railroad forum that has a specific thread about another forum. You came here allegedly to get away from it, and then you brought it all with you anyway and you STILL can't stop talking about it.

You folks need to seriously rethink your purpose in being here.