Stumped. Tsunami installation into P2K GP9

[tetters]

Hi guys. I could really use some help.

I am trying to install a Tsunami TSU GN 1000 into my P2K GP9. So far I've manged to wire the motor wires and the speaker wires. That's it.

The wiring schematic that came with the instructions shows wiring for two wires from each pickup or truck. Problem is, I only have one "black" wire coming from each truck. The P2K also has one lone red wire that is screwed to the frame.

Here is a picture of what I have so far... try to be kind...this is the first time I've tried installing one of these.



So...Got the motor wired up. Got the speakers wired up...now what? :oops:

The Tsunami instructions that came with the decoder show a two pick up wires for each truck. Seen here...



Nosing around on the web I have found various sources of information, but I can be a dunder head at times even when the answer is staring at me right in the face. I found the Litchfield Station website to be of some use.

From the site,

The speaker was installed in the shell and connected to the two-pin connector MALE side.The speaker was sealed to the shell with bathtub caulk. The decoder was installed with the LEDs wired with the anode to one rail and returned to the function pad with a 750 ohm series resistor. The capacitor is secured above the front truck with double sided tape.

...it then goes on to say...

We did this install before the TSU-AT1000 Atlas light board version of the SoundTraxx Tsunami was available. In 2009, we would use that decoder for four reasons - lower price, more accurate sound, easier light connections and programming without using indexed CVs. The LEDs would be wired between the lighting pads on the board, not to one rail!

Does this mean I can wire up the Truck leads to the board directly to the decoder then "splice" the red wire to the corresponding pad on the decoder. Just for the sake of argument let say the red wire bolted to the frame is for the right pick up. Assuming the red wire screwed to the frame is meant as an electrical pickup for both trucks. Am I even close?

If I can figure this part out I can manage the rest...I think... :oops:

Sorry...I think on the fly a lot... I suppose I could investigate further and eliminate the red wire screwed to the frame and just isolate and run a red wire wire from one side of the trucks. The key word, and being able to isolate the the right and left side pick ups.

[Gary S]

Just for the sake of argument let say the red wire bolted to the frame is for the right pick up. Assuming the red wire screwed to the frame is meant as an electrical pickup for both trucks. Am I even close?

Tetters, I am 99.9% certain that your thinking is correct on the red wire. The red wire attached to the frame is the "pick-up" from the opposite side of the trucks from the black wires. In other words, there is a black wire from 2 wheels on the front truck and a black wire from 2 wheels on the rear truck. All four of these wheels are on the same side of the loco. Now, the other four wheels actually use the frame as part of the electrical circuit... and the frame has the red wire screwed to it which is essentially "two red wires" because it is the pick-up wire from both trucks on the "red" side.

A bit more explanation: Just like on an Athearn loco, the metal piece that holds the brass bearings for the wheels on the "red" side is bent horizontal on top of the truck and the metal chassis sits on this. So, there is an electrical circuit from the track to the wheels to the bearings to the metal piece to the frame to the screw to the red wire.

Does this mean I can wire up the Truck leads to the board directly to the decoder then "splice" the red wire to the corresponding pad on the decoder.

Black wires can go to each end of the decoder as in the instructions. The red wire only needs to go to one end of the decoder. There is no need for two red wires because the "red wire attachment points" on each end of the decoder are electrically connected together in the decoder.... there is essentially a "red wire bus" running the length of the decoder. You may even be able to see the conducting trace on the bottom or top of the decoder.

If you have an ohm-meter, you can verify all the red wire and black wire stuff... sit the loco on a piece of track and then verify that the black wires have continuity to one rail, and the red wire has continuity to the other.

I just took the shell off of a P2K GP30 and it has one red wire from the frame to the decoder. I did the meter test on the GP30 and it has continuity to the frame on "red" side and not on the "black" side.

If you wanted to, you could further dismantle the loco and solder a red wire to the metal "bearing holder" pieces at each truck so you're not relying on the chassis/truck joint to carry current.

Hope this makes sense.

[Gary S]

Oh, one other thing... did you mill the chassis yourself?

[tetters]

Thanks Gary! That's a big help. I just wanted make sure my thinking was correct on this.

One more question. Is it necessary to insulate the trucks from the frame so that the frame is not "electrified" should I choose to solder a red wire to each truck?

Oh, one other thing... did you mill the chassis yourself?

Yes I did. I was wondering if anyone would notice that. I followed the suggestion on the Litchfield Station website and used my belt sander to mill the frame down nice and level. Not as efficient as a milling machine, but just as effective.

[Gary S]

The belt sander did a mighty fine job!

There would be no need to insulate the frame from the trucks if you add the second red wire. The frame would still be at the red wire polarity, but since it wouldn't be electrically connected to anything, it wouldn't matter.... sort of like an electrical outlet with nothing plugged into it.

On another note, yesterday afternoon I ordered a P2K ATSF GP7 with sound from Trainworld. That's the place with the multi-page black and white ads in MR magazine.

[tetters]

The belt sander did a mighty fine job!

There would be no need to insulate the frame from the trucks if you add the second red wire. The frame would still be at the red wire polarity, but since it wouldn't be electrically connected to anything, it wouldn't matter.... sort of like an electrical outlet with nothing plugged into it.

On another note, yesterday afternoon I ordered a P2K ATSF GP7 with sound from Trainworld. That's the place with the multi-page black and white ads in MR magazine.

Once again Thanks!

I was worried about the thought of insulating the trucks. But, I understand what you are saying.

Yes. The belt sander did a might fine job. A little on the slow side, noisy and it created A LOT of metal "dust". The chassis also got a little hot and needed to be handled with gloves, otherwise its gets a little too hot to handle. Its still the original belt on it too, however I think I might have to replace after this latest effort. I think it was on its last legs anyway.

The bad news is that I have not seen one (the belt sander that is) carried by any of the box box or little hardware stores anywhere. I can still get belts, but I don't think that they sell the actual tool anymore.

I'll have to take a picture of it and post it up so that people can see what I'm talking about. Its a Delta Bench Top Belt/Disc Sander. Great tool for lots of projects IMHO.

[Gary S]

If you wouldn't mind, I would love to see some "installation" photos showing the process of how you are putting the speaker in. I've got a few locos that I want to add sound to, so seeing what you are doing would certainly be a big help.

[Steamtrains]

Hey..!! A photo-heavy thread would be great...!!
About the milling...I've read many threads where people do this milling step...What's the milling for..??

[tetters]

O.K. I'll work on it tonight. Take a whack of photos. Hopefully you fine folks will find it useful.

[tetters]

Hey..!! A photo-heavy thread would be great...!!
About the milling...I've read many threads where people do this milling step...What's the milling for..??

To make room for the speaker of course. At least pretty much in my case.

The P2K shell fits sooo tight over the chassis that there is not much room to get stuff in there. So you literally have to make some. As far as weight is concerned, I don't think the chassis really carries that much as it is made out of cast aluminum. This is not the first time I've milled a chassis either to make room for "stuff".

O.K. So anyways, I got this thing all wired for power and stuff, hooked up the speaker and viola! Sound! Yippee! I took several pictures last night and test fit the shell and realized that I still had to make more room for the speaker. So I did a "do over", disassembled everything, and took a little bit more off the top at the one end of the chassis. Plenty of room now. I just don't want to feel like I have to cram everything in there when I do the "final" install.

I have to install the LEDs and resistors which I will do tonight. Once I get everything back together and assembled I will post up the pictures of my adventures in sound decoder installation.

Stay tuned.

[tetters]

Gah!

I can't seem to get anything to work lately. I was thinking tonight I would finish this off. But, I'm stumped again.

I cannot get the LED's to light. To summarize I've wired up a 700 resistor to the long lead on a 3mm LED. I tried swapping the contacts thinking I got the polarity mixed up, nothing. Putting the resistor on the other lead, I tried a lower resistor, like 465 and nadda. I tried the contacts at both ends. I even just touched the contacts of a unmolested LED to the contacts. Nothing. I double checked, triple checked and grrrrrrrrrrrrrr....

Thing is, I touch a 12v bulb to the contacts on the decoder and it lights. However, it appears as if the voltage getting to it is pretty weak. Not bright like I've seen from a 12 volt bulb usually. What is going on here? I have a feeling that the decoder is not sending enough juice to the lights. Why I don't know. It has to be something. I've scoured manuals, on-line and bah, not much going on.

Now I'm seriously stumped. I might swing by my LHS this Saturday, see if they have any ideas...I dunno. In the meantime if anyone has any suggestions I'd like to hear it.

[Charlie B]

Teeters, put your voltmeter on the leads to the light. I have read somewhere, that some decoders are already set for LED's and don't need the resistor. If you are using a resistor it may be cutting the power down too much.
Charlie

[MartyG]

Hey tetters. Go to the soundtraxx website .Go to the manuels and it tells you what you need to know.Upon setting up your decoder yopu have to tell it you are using LEDs by setting the CVs after install .They recomend using a 680 ohm resistor in each function leed for LEDs.After your done and before you button it all up test it and set the lighting effect CV to LED use.I have used NCE decoders in the past and they are the same way "Sometimes". Try that and I hope it works out .Page 31 of the tech manuel will tell you about the CVs and 25-26 of the install manuel will show you the LED install .I find with these dont let them get you down.I have done lots of these and I found alot more of my time was spent reading manuels to understand why than the install took. Goodluck.MartyG

[Charlie B]

Hey tetters. Go to the soundtraxx website .Go to the manuels and it tells you what you need to know.Upon setting up your decoder yopu have to tell it you are using LEDs by setting the CVs after install .They recomend using a 680 ohm resistor in each function leed for LEDs.After your done and before you button it all up test it and set the lighting effect CV to LED use.I have used NCE decoders in the past and they are the same way "Sometimes". Try that and I hope it works out .Page 31 of the tech manuel will tell you about the CVs and 25-26 of the install manuel will show you the LED install .I find with these dont let them get you down.I have done lots of these and I found alot more of my time was spent reading manuels to understand why than the install took. Goodluck.MartyG

Thanks Marty, that is good to know. This is why I love this forum.
Charlie

[tetters]

Thanks Marty.

I found this response on a Soundtraxx Yahoo Group;

Link: http://dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/soundt...sage/19212

I agree on the 680 ohm comment; I am tending to much higher resistance values.
Also note that the Sountraxx units require adding "128" to the the value
identified in the programming manual when using LEDs. Honestly, I am not sure
what really changes when plugging that in, but it does affect the lighting.

As for wiring of the LED, the light power is DC, and the LEDs are polarity
sensitive. Easy way to remember wiring out leads is to connect the long lead on
the LED to the blue common lead. The resistor can be on either side of the LED
in the circuit.

As for programming, I like to be able to control the headlights independently
and have set up the following standards for my layout:

F0 - Headlight
F5 - Strobe/Gryalight/Rotary Beacon
F6 - Backup Light
F7 - Dim

To do this, I program the following CV's:

CV 33 - 1
CV 34 - 1
CV 39 - 2
CV 49 - 129 (for LEDs)
CV 50 - 193 (folr LEDs)
CV 51 - 136 (for LED's as a rotary beacon. Refer to the Soundtraxx manual for
whatever other effect you might like)

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Detlef

This suspiciously sounds like what you are talking about. I did download the manuals but, to be honest, its like reading a foreign language sometimes. It takes me sometimes a few re-reads to absorb this kind of info. I'll see what I can pull off tonight. For my purposes originally, I am/was going to wire up both the head light and back up light to F0 function. However, the idea of being able to independently control the lights in intriguing. That said, I think I'll stick to the plan and get them working first. :oops:

So if I read this manuals and quoted response, I need to program CV's 33 & 34 with a value of 1 in order to map the function to turn them on.
Then for the LED compensation I need to enter the appropriate values according to the manual. For CV's 49 & 50 I would then program the CV's with a value of 192 for simple on and off.

I was able to determine that the LED's are wired properly by touching one of the leads to the function output and touching the other one of the truck wires. So the LEDs do light.

I'll try again tonight.