Peco Insulfrog Nscale Turnout & Derailments
#1
Is it just happening on my layout, or are others having occasional derailments when their engines or cars cross over a Peco turnout? On my layout, several of the engines will derail when entering a Peco turnout, and I haven't been able to figure out why. I'm matching up Atlas Code 80 to the Peco Code 80 track. Almost all the cars but a few traverse the turnout with no problems, while others, I guess with smaller flanges, derail unless they're going at a slow and steady speed. Same with the engines...some will hit the turnout and visibly jump up a bit while others don't have a problem. I'm guessing the ones who have the problem have a lower clearance over the turnout mechanism causing the bump.

I haven't tried going at them with a metal file to reduce the sharp edges, and I don't believe that's the issue here. More like the engines and cars are hitting the plastic housing that contains the actual switching mechanism. (I guess I could try to file that down just a bit and see how the rolling stock and engines run.) I also made sure none of the metal coupling pins were hitting any of the turnout components. A few of them were and would stop a train dead in its tracks.

Anyone else have this problem...or even better...a fix or idea to solve this?
Mark

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#2
The clearance issue will be where the car jump up. Most like it will be rolling stock with deeper flanges if the problem is a lack of depth for the clearance at places like the frogs or throw bar. The other possibility is that the gauge of the rails may be a little bit tight, or some of the wheels may be too wide causing them to ride up and derail. The other possibility is that the turnout might be twisted or tweaked if it isn't mounted flat.
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#3
I'm sorry to hear of your troubles Herc. I used to be an Atlas man... until I discovered Peco and now there's no going back. Would it be possible for you to take several pictures of one of the turnouts in question? ...perhaps an overview of the area so we can get a general understanding of where it is and how it fits into your layout and then a closeup so we can really check it out and see if anything catches somebodies eye?
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#4
Those are some great ideas Russ...and I'm going to check each one. Process of elimination since there doesn't seem to be an apparent reason. I find it odd that all 12 of my Peco turnouts seem to do this, not just one. It's such a slight upward movement of the cars and engines, but just enough to allow a wheel to derail. I've noticed that plastic wheels seem to be more prone to this than metal wheel sets, and light cars rather than heavier cars. But the engine problem seems to be limited to three and four axle engines. The lead-in tracks to the turnouts are all straight on the layout, there's no curved track adjoining the turnout, so there should be no shifting of wheels or trucks as they enter the turnout.

I'll keep checking and try to figure this one out.
Mark

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Lt Colonel, USAF (Retired)
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#5
If all of the Peco turnouts result in derailing, it is probably not a result of turnout bending or twisting. It could be guard rails set too wide as well. I forgot to mention that possibility. Atlas turnouts in HO scale are famous for having the guard rails too far from the rails, so that they just don't serve any function. The guard rail opposite the frog on both diverging tracks should restrict side to side movement of the wheels to keep them properly railed all the way through the frog and out the other side.
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#6
Good point...and another thing I'm going to check out. To me, it seems like the frog is set too high. Although it appears flush with the rail heads, I'm thinking it is 1 mm too high as the trucks pass over the tracks, causing the underside of the truck assembly to bump up and ride on the frog. But looking closely at the guard rails, they too might be too high.
Mark

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#7
Hi Herc Driver
I have 15 Peco insulfrog turnouts on my layout, they work fine and I am in the process of adding 12 more in a yard area. The only problem I had was with a turnout on a grade; when I installed it, I inadvertently created a slight twist. Once that was corrected it performed flawlessly.
Additionally, we have over 50 Peco insulfrogs on our clubs N-trak and switching puzzle layouts, that have performed with out problem.
Bottom line is I would be hesitant to start taking a file to the turnouts, that becomes an non-reverseable action that may not be warranted. I am presuming that you have run your finger over all the connections and all the rails are smooth. It wouldn't be the first time that a track connector was underneath the rail and not properly aligning the tracks.
I like TrainNut's idea of showing us some pictures. As they say, they are worth a thousand words and something might be spotted that you have just overlooked.
dwight77
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#8
The other thing to look at is that it may not be that the frog is too high. If the flanges on the wheels are bigger than the depth of the flangeway, the flanges will ride up when the car crosses the frog.
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#9
First a disclaimer: I really like these Peco turnouts, so I'm in no way commenting negatively on their performance. I understand that a manufacturer can't possibly make a product that will work with every product 100% of the time. That said, I just to everything to stay on the tracks and will work to achieve that goal.

And some additional information...The cars that have been derailing are some auto racks from Intermountain, and two new Fox Valley Models ES44AC engines. When I gently moved the engine, I noticed an extremely small height difference mainline rails and the turnout. The front bottom edge of the fuel tank would hit that spot square and would stop dead if moving slow enough, so some quick filing solved that problem. But still, the cars and some engines would derail or fail to align with the correct track. So, the first thing I tried today was to angle the edges of the frogs on all the turnouts. I tried to shave off approximately 1/16th an inch at a 60 degree angle. On almost every turnout, this helped the wheels align correctly.
Mark

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Lt Colonel, USAF (Retired)
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#10
Herc:
Have you checked the gauge on your wheels? I don't know how Peco's N gauge turnouts are, but the HO/OO ones have had a number of different standards over the years to work with assorted British wheel types.
Are you working with different rail sizes? The top of the rails must match up and the transition needs to be shimmed.
David
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Perth & Exeter Railway Company
Esquesing & Chinguacousy Radial Railway
In model railroading, there are between six and two hundred ways of performing a given task.
Most modellers can get two of them to work.
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#11
Very good question, and yes, I've checked and rechecked the gauge of the wheels and everything is spaced correctly.

I noticed this problem quite a while ago, but haven't written about it looking to see if my problem was also seen by others. I think the Peco turnouts are great, but I've seen this problem since I installed them but only on one car or two. As I continued to add engines and cars to my collection, more and more would show the same trouble crossing over the frogs. My gut feeling is the depth of the frog is too shallow which allows the wheel flange to ride up and mis-align the wheels to derail. I notice this problem more with three-axle engines and cars. Additionally, I've seen several fuel tanks on engines ride up and atop the plastic guard rails (sometimes called the frog I believe). I'm going to try to file the guard rails down slightly and try to deepen the channel that makes up the frog point so the wheels can roll through without an elevation change.

I know there's lots of people who use Peco turnouts, so I'm concerned others have not seen this issue. Makes me wonder if the cause is something I did when placing the turnouts on the layout. But honestly, I don't see that as a possibility since all the turnouts (except one) have straight track going to and from the turnout, and all are on level foam board. And I checked each turnout and they're not flexed or twisted, or under any pressure from the adjoining rails.

The only other possibility I can think of is, since I run engines and cars from various manufacturers, there's any number of different wheel dimensions traversing the turnout. Some with longer flanges than other I would suppose. Microtrains have the Standard and Low Profile wheels, InterMountain has the 33" and 36" wheels, and I'd guess there's subtle differences between Athearn and Atlas wheels sets as well. I've noticed that Athearn and Atlas cars almost never derail, while InterMountain and Microtrains wheels sets on longer cars like auto racks or passenger cars are prone to when crossing thru the turnouts (not always, but about 25% of the time). Additionally, I've noticed Atlas, Athearn, Kato, Bachmann, and LifeLike engines almost never derail. But I've got to watch the PCM, InterMountain, and Fox Valley engines as they go through the turnouts. I will try to take one of the cars that derail often and replace the wheels with a low-flange type, just to see if that makes a difference. I've also read that switching every wheel set to metal wheels makes a difference as well. I'd guess 80% of my rolling stock has plastic wheels. So I wonder if converting them to metal wheel sets would improve the running ability? I know there are some that swear by all-metal wheels to improve running ability and track cleanliness, while others say that's not necessary.

Thanks guys for reading through all this and offering some ideas. I certainly appreciate it. Thumbsup
Mark

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Lt Colonel, USAF (Retired)
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#12
Check you car weights. I don't know the NMRA standard for N-scale, but in HO freight cars tend to be too light which will contribute to derailing. Also I went to a workshop on tuning up rolling stock over the weekend, and heard something I'd never heard of before. The man giving the work shop has been placed in charge of rolling stock inspections at a large club in Southern California, and the first thing he said is take the "three point suspension" system that we have all heard about and "throw it out the window" because it will guarantee derailment problems. After making sure that your wheels are in gauge and true, and the cars are weighted properly, you set the car on the track, and with one finger nail, you should be able to rock the car one scale foot without either truck lifting off the rails. If you can't rock the cars one scale foot without the wheels lifting off the track, the car will derail if the track work is not absolutely perfectly flat and level in all planes.
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