Posts: 229
Threads: 22
Joined: Dec 2008
Hi Kids,
Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but....
Why are there so many different DCC Decoders?
Don't we really only need one or two?
Maximum amperage rating I understand. You want a Decoder that won't fry in a loco that draws a lot of juice. Generally Speaking, the more amperage, the larger the decoder.
So why not just make decoders that are rated 1 amp, 2 amps, 3 amps, etc...
Make them all with the same number of functions.
With sound, or piggy back a separate sound decoder?
Okey, so you run into space limitations and you may have to put the control decoder in the loco and the sound decoder in the tender with the speaker... Or shoe horn them into different parts of the loco... What-ever...
I get that...
I also understand that each type of locomotive has different sounds.
So what?
You can get sound decoders that allow you to record on to them for custom sounds that you can download from the web and load them onto the decoder.
Why not just have a few generic decoders that you can customize to your needs instead of the dozens of more expensive loco specific decoders that are out there???
It just seems like a scam to me...
Posts: 9,734
Threads: 233
Joined: Dec 2008
Why do we have Fords, Chevys , Chryslers, Toyotas, etc? Competition is good for the industry.
Some decoders are better than others.
Some people like some decoders, and not others. 
Charlie
Posts: 1,817
Threads: 27
Joined: Dec 2009
Monsieur The Goat of Tin ...
In design school many years ago, I learned that the answer is quite often in the question, so let's give it a shot. 8-)
Why do we need so many different vehicles? Why not just have one with four doors and two seats that will hold five adults and a suitcase for each, and another with two doors and a seat that will hold three adults but a large open area in the rear that can hold several suitcases each, plus a half-dozen sheets of plywood, three dozen two-by-fours, a cooler for each and throw in a tarp for in case it rains? We can call the first one car and the second one we can call truck. There. Now everyone should be happy.  
No? :o 
How 'bout this? I model in HO. So do you. But I have steam and you have diesel. You want sound and I could care less about sound and don't want to have to pay for something I'm not going to use. You have plenty of room inside your diesel shells for decoders and speakers, etc. But did I mention that My HOn3 steam engines are on the small side and I need a decoder that's still 1 amp but is very small so I can shoe-horn it into a very tiny space. Are you starting to see what I'm driving at?  In a free economy, the market drives the product offering. :!:
It's all that simple! 
The big benefit to all is that competition will eventually bring the price down ... the more choice there is, the lower the price will get. Have you priced a 24" color TV lately? When they first came out you needed the better part of $600 to take one home to your house and be the envy of the neighborhood!
biL
Lehigh Susquehanna & Western
"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." ~~Abraham Lincoln
Posts: 2,271
Threads: 155
Joined: Dec 2008
Or to make Charlie's response more RR-specific...
Why Accurail, Athearn, and others?
Why brass and plastic?
Why RTR and kits?
I think this last one comes closest to the decoder question. Sure, "we" could make one super customizable decoder. We'd all buy it and tune it specifically to our needs. But there's lots of people who'd rather "plug'n'play" and spend time on other aspects.
Heck, not even the railroads use one type of any given thing - especially locomotives! 
Andrew
Posts: 229
Threads: 22
Joined: Dec 2008
Alright, thanks guys! 
Posts: 229
Threads: 22
Joined: Dec 2008
On to another dumb question:
Life would be so much easier if Throttle X would work with Command Station Y right out of the box.
The DCC decoders are all standardized, so why not all of the throttles?
Why can't I bring my Lenz Throttle over to my friends layout and plug it into his Digitrax system?
Posts: 921
Threads: 33
Joined: Dec 2008
I believe the pioneer in "universal" use of decoders on this board is Jeffrey. If I remember right, he has taken a decoder out of just about every manufacturer of locomotive and used it in just about any other, with fine results. It's really a product of the market. Any decoder will work, but will it work "plug and play"? Ready to run seems to be the focus of the industry. Jeffrey doesn't mind rewiring a loco or decoder to suit his needs so he has no need for the "special" or manufacturer specific decoders, while others don't want to modify their new lokeys, they just want to plug and play.
-Dave
Posts: 229
Threads: 22
Joined: Dec 2008
Thanks Dave,
But I've switched gears.
Now I'm asking about Throttles and Stations.
You can't plug a Lenz throttle into a Digitrax system.
The DCC decoders are all standardized, so why not all of the throttles?
Puddlejumper Wrote:I believe the pioneer in "universal" use of decoders on this board is Jeffrey. If I remember right, he has taken a decoder out of just about every manufacturer of locomotive and used it in just about any other, with fine results. It's really a product of the market. Any decoder will work, but will it work "plug and play"? Ready to run seems to be the focus of the industry. Jeffrey doesn't mind rewiring a loco or decoder to suit his needs so he has no need for the "special" or manufacturer specific decoders, while others don't want to modify their new lokeys, they just want to plug and play.
Having been involved in discussions to develop module standards, the issue of control is a major problem.
When I've set up with the module group, DCC becomes a necessity. It means that I have to borrow someone else's equipment if I want to run a train.
Conventional Wisdom states that you buy the DCC system that your friends are using.
It doesn't work in my case.
They all have different systems!
Although they all share the same Throttle Bus wiring, none of the systems and throttles are compatible.
If one guy shows up with a Digitrax System to run the modules, everyone else has to have a Digitrax throttle. At the next meet, someone will bring a Lenz System, and the Third guy may have Easy DCC that uses a totally different Throttle Bus! Not to mention the need for yet another throttle.
The Compatibility is limited at best and it is enough to drive you mental. Not to mention bankrupt if you have to buy several Throttles in order to be compatible with which-ever system is being used on the module layout.
Posts: 2,959
Threads: 158
Joined: Dec 2008
This day and age, isn't there an I-phone throttle application application for every brand of DCC? got a problem with DCC compatibility? download an Iphone software! Piece of cake!!
(not that I would really know, I am a rotary dailer myself. I still havent upgraded my car to electronic ignition!  )
--
Kevin
Check out my Shapeways creations!
3-d printed items in HO/HOn3 and more!
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://www.shapeways.com/shops/kevin-s-model-train-detail-parts">https://www.shapeways.com/shops/kevin-s ... tail-parts</a><!-- m -->
Posts: 2,415
Threads: 63
Joined: Dec 2008
Mr. Goat:
Someone (in computers) said, "The nice thing about standards is there are so many of them." 
NMRA managed to define standards at the track/bus level. Someone on the committee may have been thinking only of home'club layouts where a single control system could be decreed while rolling stock could be moved.
Or they may not have had the manpower to delve into the control boxes.
David
Moderato ma non troppo
Perth & Exeter Railway Company
Esquesing & Chinguacousy Radial Railway
In model railroading, there are between six and two hundred ways of performing a given task.
Most modellers can get two of them to work.
Posts: 3,683
Threads: 118
Joined: Jan 2009
I think that the NMRA did the appropriate thing by only standardizing the decoder communications/implementation and track bus. Anything more would have been too restrictive in my opinion. Each company needed leeway to design their system the way they saw fit, that way the consumer wins in the end because of the competition and research.
On the other hand, it could be argued that the consumer actually loses with the minimal standards because once the consumer buys a system, he is intimately tied to that product and any upgrades and additional equipment must be purchased from said company, essentially doing away with the competition.
Hmmm... not sure what is proper here. I am certain that the NMRA shouldn't be expected to spend huge amounts of money researching and developing a DCC "across-the-board" standard.
I agree that it would be cool to be able to use brand A's throttle on brand B's bus, though. On that note, it seems that a "universal" system could be designed and built which would accept any throttle and convert the signal into one that is understood by any other system. Or perhaps a universal throttle that could be configured to run on any system... with various adaptors to attach to the control bus?
Hmmmm.... the next million dollar idea?
Three Foot Rule In Effect At All Times
Posts: 1,049
Threads: 45
Joined: Dec 2008
TinGoat Wrote:Thanks Dave,
The DCC decoders are all standardized, so why not all of the throttles?
Not part of the DCC standard. Any throttle(s) are part of the DCC command station, not part of the communication between the command station and the decoders aboard the trains. It is the communication between command station and train that has to be specified for the system to work.
The most obvious practical solution for a modular club would be to pick and buy a specific (whichever you guys prefer) DCC command station belonging to the club, and then either require that all club members buy an extra throttle for this type DCC command station, or to buy a given number (five or ten or whatever seems sensible) throttles of this brand to use when running the modules as a club layout.
Then people can use whatever command station they want for their home layouts, but the club has a given command station for club use.
Stein
Posts: 229
Threads: 22
Joined: Dec 2008
steinjr Wrote:Not part of the DCC standard. Any throttle(s) are part of the DCC command station, not part of the communication between the command station and the decoders aboard the trains. It is the communication between command station and train that has to be specified for the system to work.
The most obvious practical solution for a modular club would be to pick and buy a specific (whichever you guys prefer) DCC command station belonging to the club, and then either require that all club members buy an extra throttle for this type DCC command station, or to buy a given number (five or ten or whatever seems sensible) throttles of this brand to use when running the modules as a club layout.
Then people can use whatever command station they want for their home layouts, but the club has a given command station for club use.
Stein
Our Module Group is a round robin affair. No Dues or Fees. We just go with whatever equipment is available.
It would be nice to have a Universal Throttle.
If they can make them for TV's, VCR's, DVD's and Stereos, why not for DCC?
Posts: 1,049
Threads: 45
Joined: Dec 2008
TinGoat Wrote:If they can make them for TV's, VCR's, DVD's and Stereos, why not for DCC?
If the demand gets high enough, universal (or multi-system) throttles will come some day. Especially if most throttles go wireless, so you don't need to include a bunch of different adapter cables with a "universal throttle".
But compared to home electronics, DCC is a tiny market. The number of people who want to interoperate throttles from different manufacturers is even smaller.
When you add that some of the people who want universal throttles have the basic attitude that they don't want to spend much money on common/interoperable hardware (but just "want to go with whatever equipment is available"), then they probably would not have been all that willing to fork over a significant amount of the green stuff for universal throttles either.
Makes it hard to see much of a business case for developing, producing, marketing, selling and supporting universal throttles.
Smile,
Stein
Posts: 3,683
Threads: 118
Joined: Jan 2009
steinjr Wrote:Makes it hard to see much of a business case for developing, producing, marketing, selling and supporting universal throttles.
So much for the million dollar idea. 
Three Foot Rule In Effect At All Times
|
