Pumping up the air!

[Gary S]

If we are switching out industries, what is the process used when cars are coupled onto the train? Woould we connect the air hoses and pump up the system for every move no matter how short? Is it correct that the brakes are released only when air is in the system? Would we ever keep the air in a car's brake system to keep the brakes released even though not connected to a loco?

Any info you guys can provide on how a real crew handles the air would be appreciated.

[faraway]

If we are switching out industries, what is the process used when cars are coupled onto the train?

Gary, my understanding is

a. Would we connect the air hoses and pump up the system for every move no matter how short?

No, during shunting the hoses are not connected if the break force of the engine only is sufficient for the weight, speed and may be downward hill/gravity and possible wind/storm

b. Is it correct that the brakes are released only when air is in the system?

No, the breaks release also when all air is out of the system

c. Would we ever keep the air in a car's brake system to keep the brakes released even though not connected to a loco?

No, you keep the air in the system to hold the car/cut. Additionally the manual break must be applied (refer to b). But you have to connect the hose and pump more air into the system to release the breaks again to get the car/cut going.

This http://www.railroad.net/articles/railfan.../index.php is a nice introduction.

The basic idea is a clever valve in each car that presses the break shoes against the wheels if the pressure is below a certain limit. If that threshold is reached the breaks are released.
The engineer pumps air (to be above the threshold) into the system to release the breaks and reduces the pressure (below the threshold) to apply the breaks. That ensures the breaks will be applied when the train is separated. Of course the break is also released when ALL air is out of the system (refer to b).

In electric terms:
Each car has a rechargeable battery of 12Volt. That battery operates the brakes. There is a single cable coming from the engine to all cars. Then the cable has a voltage higher than 12 Volt the breaks are released and the battery is recharged. To apply the breaks softly you reduce the voltage to 11 Volt. To break harder you reduce it to 8 Volt. In case of emergency you ground the line and send 0 Volt. The breaks will be fully applied from the battery. That hold true until the battery is empty. You have than a car without an operational break. It is therefor essential to have some periods of recharge to keep the system operational.

[Charlie B]

Gary, that is not a simple question to answer. we allowed 8 minutes for the cars to charge before we did a brake test. 1-8 cars completely drained should charge in this time, then allow a minute per car for more then 8.
You could kick a car by either "bottling " the air, which means close both angle cocks without the brakes applied, or by bleeding the system completely. Some plants where cars are spotted will bleed the air so they can move the car with other means. It is when they are bled that it takes so long to charge. All cars are drained in the yards for humping and many when flat switching, thus the ground lines are used to charge the train lines in newly made trains waiting for crews and motive power. This saves time so the crew can couple into the train, pump off the brakes and do their brake test before leaving the yard. 100 per cent of the brakes have to work before leaving a terminal. There are different tests required for switching operations out and about.
Charlie

[Gary S]

Thanks for the info guys, and Reinhard, thanks for the link.

Take my industrial shortline, or the LAJ as an example. If we were taking 8 cars at a max of 10 mph for less than a mile, to be switched at some industries, would we connect the brakes and pump everyting up? Or would we rely on the engine brakes?

[faraway]

Thanks for the info guys, and Reinhard, thanks for the link.

Take my industrial shortline, or the LAJ as an example. If we were taking 8 cars at a max of 10 mph for less than a mile, to be switched at some industries, would we connect the brakes and pump everyting up? Or would we rely on the engine brakes?

If you are going out of the yard as a train the breaks have to be fully operational in any case. It is not important if the distance to travel is below one mile.
Ones the industry has been reached and the industry might be huge the engine might switch with a cut over a mile within the industry or a huge yard with breaks from the engine only.

[Charlie B]

Any time a cut of cars or locomotives crosses a public crossing or is operated as a train the air has to be operational.
Charlie

[Puddlejumper]

Yes, when switching industries you *would* couple and recharge the brake line every time you pick up/set out a car. When you uncouple from your train, the portion of the train you leave behind will lose brake pipe pressure, but there will still be air on the train. Each car has a reservoir with air in it. When you hook back up, you are recharging the brake pipe, plus whatever air each car used out of it's reservoir to apply the brakes, but you are not recharging from completely empty.

When switching in a yard situation, many times crews will switch with just the brakes on the engine. In this case, the crew member on the ground will walk the cut of cars and pull a lever on each car, bleeding the air from the reservoir on each car, rendering the brake system inoperable. In this case you would rely on the brakes of the engine, and the handbrakes on individual cars. Like mentioned above, this is unacceptable, and a major FRA violation, if used outside of yard limits, regardless of distance.

[Charlie B]

It is not a violation to bleed cars on the main or outside of yard limits, you are not allowed to cross a crossing without air. Many times crews will bleed air and drop a car in a siding or kick cars from the main to a siding, you just have to make sure you have something tied down to kick into. Turning cars loose with nothing to stop them can really cause some problems. I saw a conductor (an old timer) do this once, I have no idea what he was thinking. He was lucky it stopped after about a mile.
Charlie

[Gary S]

Many times crews will bleed air and drop a car in a siding or kick cars from the main to a siding, you just have to make sure you have something tied down to kick into.

What does that last part mean, Charlie?

[Puddlejumper]

It means you need to have a car or cars already in the track with handbrakes applied. This would ensure the car you are kicking, which has no brakes, will indeed stop where you wanted it to (it will couple to the car that is tied down). If you kick a car into an empty track it will just roll until it hits something, rolls off the track, or up a grade.

Charlie I guess I am not too great at wording what I am thinking. Yes, it is ok to bleed the air off of cars to work industries, though I admit to having only done it once in my relatively short RR career. I never saw the need to do that, the one time I did do it I was being lazy, it was below freezing, and the car I had tied down in the siding rolled when I kicked the car into it. I ended up having to run and hop on and tie down the car I kicked, negating the purpose of kicking it in the first place. I never kicked a car out on the road again. But it IS an FRA violation to leave your initial terminal without 100% functional brakes which is more what I should have said. Not a problem if all your industries are within yard limits tho.

[Charlie B]

Dave, There were new air brake rules implemented around 2003, I can't remember for sure and all the records and test were left behind, hoping I would never have need for them again. If you worked before this you won't be aware of all of them, but actually I think they took a lot of the mystery out of them.
I used to argue with my FRA man, who I had met years ago as a volunteer on another short line, and we became very good friends, that being said, he would have cited his mother for a violation. Any how I came from years of working many mechanical related jobs, and could never ever figure why you had to tear working brake valves apart and "repair" them. I actually think this was a make work rule. I believe "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" on a lot of things.
When they had the run-aways on the UP, he was the top investigator. They found 28 defective brake valves. The reason they were defective was, pipe cleaner parts plugging holes, poor replacement gaskets, and wire brush bristles.
Now had they not been "repaired" there is a good chance no accident would have happened. So now, they only need to be repaired when there is a problem. All cars have to undergo a single car air brake test at least every 5 years, unless the brake has to be cut out, wheel build up shows, flat spots, or a car is on a repair track, then the test has to be done. The reports of this test are entered into the umler data base for the car, which can be accessed by any railroad, and the information is transmitted when the car is electronically interchanged.
Are you bored yet? That is why I will never have paperwork for my models
Charlie

[Charlie B]

Another thing about "kicking" cars is to get the remainder of the train stopped before the switch so you save the reversing move. If an engineer doesn't know what he is doing then you are wasting time. I used to watch a little shortline that had a big yard do flat switching. They were good at it. The locomotive would start with a cut of 40 or 50 cars, give the train a kick and the conductor would make the cut, and the engineer would just bump the brake to make the cut. they had 3 or 4 guys manning switches, and the engineer never made a backup move, and all the cars would be put in their proper sidings. One of the best things I have ever seen done, and done in less then 30 minutes too.
The HO cars today are getting close to rolling well enough that we could simulate this.
Charlie

[Puddlejumper]

Wow Charlie, I would have loved to have seen you guys work like that! You were correct in estimating that I quit railroading prior to 2003. In fact, I left CSXT in the Spring of 2002. My career with CSXT was relatively short, and I can assure you that, while I was a responsible and efficient railroader, you have seen and done more in your career than I have, and probably forgotten more about railroading than I ever knew. I appreciate the insight from a senior rail.

[Tom]

It means you need to have a car or cars already in the track with handbrakes applied. This would ensure the car you are kicking, which has no brakes, will indeed stop where you wanted it to (it will couple to the car that is tied down). If you kick a car into an empty track it will just roll until it hits something, rolls off the track, or up a grade.

Charlie I guess I am not too great at wording what I am thinking. Yes, it is ok to bleed the air off of cars to work industries, though I admit to having only done it once in my relatively short RR career. I never saw the need to do that, the one time I did do it I was being lazy, it was below freezing, and the car I had tied down in the siding rolled when I kicked the car into it. I ended up having to run and hop on and tie down the car I kicked, negating the purpose of kicking it in the first place. I never kicked a car out on the road again. But it IS an FRA violation to leave your initial terminal without 100% functional brakes which is more what I should have said. Not a problem if all your industries are within yard limits tho.

At the shortline I used to work for, we called them "catch cars". We had a fairly sizeable yard that was single ended. The lead went uphill (the yard was in a "bowl" of sorts) and curved around next to the engine house. We would shove down the main, across the diverting canal slowly while I bled them off. (we're talking a cut of about 20-45 cars here). I could see the rear from where I was at next to the diesel shop, and would pretty much stand in place pulling the bleed rods as we shoved backwards. Once I had it all bled off, we'd stop and reverse direction. Mark or Scott would be down in the yard (he was lining switches going back and forth from switch to switch). Prior to our shift, Mark (usually) would run down Fremont street near the crossing for the "Bean lead" and make sure we had at least 3 catch cars at the end of each rail (cars with handbrakes applied tight). Remember, this is a stub end yard, last thing we want is cars winding up across Fremont street! Anyway, after Rich would pull teh train past me, I'd spot him up at the rear car right next to me, and as I would have my switch list in my left hand (always facing the engine), I'd pull cut levers with the right and let 'em roll! There is no better way to switch a yard in my warped opinion.

On our (shall remain nameless East Stockton, CA shortline who is notorious for its former fleet or old yellow Alco switchers with the city's name in its name ) railroad, we never ONCE did an airtest of ANY kind, operating over road crossings, going to BNSF and UP for interchange cuts, etc. When I was new, I asked Mark and he said "we don't do that here".

Ah, but what a fun railroad it was to work on, especially with Alco S2's, S4's and S1's. Especially the S4. What a badassed, MADE for switching, engine. Just a really neat little operation. Drops, dutch drops, kicking, just loads of fun for a switchman.

[Puddlejumper]

Ah, but what a fun railroad it was to work on, especially with Alco S2's, S4's and S1's. Especially the S4. What a badassed, MADE for switching, engine. Just a really neat little operation. Drops, dutch drops, kicking, just loads of fun for a switchman.

Indeed, that does sound like a great place to work! One of the reasons I didn't like working for a big RR like CSXT was because we were no longer allowed to work smarter, we had to do things the hard way (the safe way). I took pride in being able to get a lot of work done but was only able to do it if I used hand signals, the yardmaster listened to the radio and would yell at me if I didn't follow every rule in the book. If I used hand signals the radio would be silent and the yardmaster wouldn't know how I was getting the work done. Hopping moving equipment would get you in trouble... then one summer they added that you had to ask for 3-step protection every time you do anything... I moved to the Richmond, Va-Phily, Pa. road pool and never looked back after that summer.