R.I.P. Model Train Magazine Index

[FCIN]

I have to plead ignorance as to how the MTMI worked, never really having used it very often, but can't believe that the data can't be transfered to a modern database and put into a web site! I've worked with database software for years and do web sites and I know it's no big deal to do this.

Sounds like the original MTMI must have been written in BASIC (not MS Dos - that's an operating system) or perhaps PASCAL. Can't imagine that the data would have been hard coded into the program! Just guessing, but I'd venture to say that the program simply read the data from a text file rather than it being hard coded into the program, as you'd have to rebuild the program whenever you updated the data.

Regardless, there should be a way to output or access all the data contained in the program. You can then copy this data into a good text editor and format the data so that it can be imported into a database. I've done that sort of thing many times! Using the open source MySQL http://www.mysql.com/ database - open source PHP http://us2.php.net/ scripting language and valid HTML, you can have something like this up and running in short order. The time consuming part would be the data conversion, which, if my guess is correct about the data being in a separate file from the program, might not take much time. Once you get your database set up and the data converted, it's a snap to keep it maintained and updated.

Like many others, I smell a rat here! Don't be surprised if the MTMI shows up in a month or so as a "Subscriber Only" tool on the MR web site, being sold on CD or better yet for Kalmbach, a book that is updated every couple of years!

Just my two and one-half cents worth!

[steinjr]

I have to plead ignorance as to how the MTMI worked, never really having used it very often, but can't believe that the data can't be transfered to a modern database and put into a web site! I've worked with database software for years and do web sites and I know it's no big deal to do this.

Unfortunately, as gleamed from various posts to various forums over the last few days, the following seem to be the case (hearsay - I cannot guarantee that this is 100% correct):

Original author was concerned about people trying to "steal" all his data (instead of just doing the occasional look-up).
Data is stored encrypted in a proprietary binary file format.
Code is not available, just binaries.
The program have a feature to lock out access if the same IP address tries to do too many accesses
And the original author is not be available any more to make changes.
(**Correction: original author has been found and is willing to assist**)

It would seem that it will not be quite as trivial to extract the data as a lot of people seem to assume.

I know that quite a few people have a strong dislike of Kalmbach, and at the drop of a hat are ready to express their distrust of Kalmbach's motives, but Neil Besougloff (sp?), the editor of Model Railroader Magazine, has gone on record as saying that they have no plans of offering the data as a paid service, and that they know of no "sane" (ie economical/sensible) way of extracting the data.

AFAIK, Kalmbach has not claimed that it would be "impossible" to extract the data. Pretty much anything can be done if you are willing to throw enough resources at a problem. It is not a given that it is a sustainable activity. Case in point : going to the moon cost a lot of money. And quite a few lives (mostly in the USSR). And yet - humanity has not been back to the moon since the mid-1970s. Once the propaganda victory of the Soviet Union was won, there was not enough will to keep funding the program.

Anyways, getting back to Kalmbach and their index. You of course may choose to think that Neil B is deliberately lying through his teeth, but there seems to be no particular rational reason to make that assumption.

Not that I expect that to convince people who have a pre-existing dislike of Kalmbach :-)

Grin,
Stein

[FCIN]

I know that quite a few people have a strong dislike of Kalmbach, and at the drop of a hat are ready to express their distrust of Kalmbach's motives (...)
You of course may choose to think that Neil B is deliberately lying through his teeth, but there seems to be no particular rational reason to make that assumption.
Not that I expect that to convince people who have a pre-existing dislike of Kalmbach :-)
Stein

Certainly did not mean to give anyone the impression that I have a pre-existing dislike of Kalmbach - certainly is not the case - and probably should have phrased things a bit differently. Kalmbach does seem to like to put information on their web site that is only available to subscribers of their publications, so I am guilty of thinking something might be amiss here.

Based on computer programming that I'd done in the past, I found it hard to believe that the data would actually be hard-coded into this program. Seems I was wrong so I apologize if I've offended any one, including Kalmbach.

The main point I was trying to make (and rather poorly at that) was that if there was/is a way to get the program to spit out the data, there are ways to transform it for use in a database program. How much time and work is involved would depend on how much data could be output at a time. For instance, could the program output all listings for a particular publication at one time?

Once again, I apologize if I've upset anyone with my posting. Was not my intention.

[Brakie]

Ed wrote:Certainly did not mean to give anyone the impression that I have a pre-existing dislike of Kalmbach - certainly is not the case - and probably should have phrased things a bit differently. Kalmbach does seem to like to put information on their web site that is only available to subscribers of their publications, so I am guilty of thinking something might be amiss here.
--------------------------------
Indeed..I also suspect something is not right..

The following is not- repeat is not-a bash but,a plain observation.

Sadly the evidence is against MR..

We have seen MR get thinner and thinner over the years and we have seen "special issues" cover what was once magazine articles.We have seen more and more "subscriber only" basic information that use to be covered in MR or free on their web site..

Are we about to see a "pay to use" or a "subscriber only" MTM index?

[nachoman]

I rarely by a Kalmbach product any more. In fact, I haven't bought a new issue of mode railroader in 5 years or more. While it is nice they provide things free (like their forums), I see no reason why they should give me free stuff when I give them nothing in return. They are a business of producing print materials for the hobby - and they need to balance their books, too.

[Brakie]

I rarely by a Kalmbach product any more. In fact, I haven't bought a new issue of mode railroader in 5 years or more. While it is nice they provide things free (like their forums), I see no reason why they should give me free stuff when I give them nothing in return. They are a business of producing print materials for the hobby - and they need to balance their books, too.

Kevin,I bought the last 3 issues of MR because they had great information..Those are the first I bought since last July...I perfer N Scale Railroading and N Scale magazine since both magazines are scale specific.

[ezdays]

One thing we must remember, Kalembach and other magazine publishers are profit organizations, just like newspapers, TV stations and other media providers. If they don't make money, they don't exist and that's a fact of life. We can choose to support them, or not. They must however, provide a fitting and interesting service at a reasonable price, otherwise their support base dwindles and they have to look for other ways to make up the losses. They cannot continue to raise prices, cut page content and start charging for services that they once gave away, without enhancing them somehow. When we lived in Wickenburg, a town about 30 miles north of where we now live, I subscribed to the local weekly paper. When we moved, I stopped the subscription, but kept in touch by reading some of the articles on their website. This week, they've decided to charge a fee to read what was once free and so I guess I'm not going to keep in touch anymore since I don't plan on re-subscribing or paying this new fee. It's not only the economy, these things happen even in good times, companies need to take advantage of every means of making money, and that's just the way it is. I'm not defending Kalembach for withdrawing their database, raising prices or cutting their magazine content, but I do think the loss of good will is something they're going to have to think about, and that can relate to the bottom line. I'm also weighing not subscribing to MR next year since I'm not sure the cost of a yearly subscription is in my budget anymore. After all, the poor economy has hit me as well, so that's something else that Kalembach and these others need to think about before they make changes.

[scubadude]

It would seem that it will not be quite as trivial to extract the data as a lot of people seem to assume.

I know that quite a few people have a strong dislike of Kalmbach, and at the drop of a hat are ready to express their distrust of Kalmbach's motives, but Neil Besougloff (sp?), the editor of Model Railroader Magazine, has gone on record as saying that they have no plans of offering the data as a paid service, and that they know of no "sane" (ie economical/sensible) way of extracting the data.

AFAIK, Kalmbach has not claimed that it would be "impossible" to extract the data. Pretty much anything can be done if you are willing to throw enough resources at a problem. It is not a given that it is a sustainable activity. Case in point : going to the moon cost a lot of money. And quite a few lives (mostly in the USSR). And yet - humanity has not been back to the moon since the mid-1970s. Once the propaganda victory of the Soviet Union was won, there was not enough will to keep funding the program.

Anyways, getting back to Kalmbach and their index. You of course may choose to think that Neil B is deliberately lying through his teeth, but there seems to be no particular rational reason to make that assumption.

Not that I expect that to convince people who have a pre-existing dislike of Kalmbach :-)

Grin,
Stein[/quote]
I think this is a pure business move. I find it funny how many folks seem to think Kalmbach is evil just because they are trying to operate a business at a profit. Obviously, costs must be cut for them to continue, just like everybody else. I suppose the alternative is to go out of business completely. The offerings of Kalmbach (old "free" articles in how-to books, web access, etc) must be acceptable to the general readership or they wouldn't exist. Although taking away a free service away from your customers is a risky endeavor, sometimes it just has to be done. Everyone has a right to be angry, but I'm pretty sure you will get nowhere when you call out the very people you are trying to convince pansies or otherwise. To me, the NMRA is no different than Kalmbach, they offer free stuff to everyone to get them hooked, then make you pay for "extras" as a paid member. If NMRA assumes the indexed database, don't be surprised if it is only available to members......

I ain't sayin', I'm just sayin'........

[P5se Camelback]

scubadude wrote: "I think this is a pure business move. I find it funny how many folks seem to think Kalmbach is evil just because they are trying to operate a business at a profit. Obviously, costs must be cut for them to continue, just like everybody else. I suppose the alternative is to go out of business completely."

Unfortunately, it seems these days that both the Government and the "Lame Street Media" would have us all believe that "Corporations are evil. Corporations are greedy because they're only in it for the profit they make."

Duh!

That's the only reason anyone goes into business ... to make money! I'd be willing to bet next month's Social Security check that there has never been anyone who woke up one morning and said to themselves, "Geez, there sure are a lot of people out of work! I think I'll start a business so I can give some of those people a job and pay them." Net Profit is more often that not turned right back into a business in the form of investment in equipment, new product research and in many companies it even figures into the the annual employee pay raise percentage.

And yet, we are contantly told that the current economic situation is all the fault of the greedy, evil corporations! Well, in all honesty, when was the last time a poor man offered you a job?

[Gary S]

I wouldn't have a problem if it comes back as a subscriber service.

Also... I love greedy capitalists. They are the reason we have such a high standard of living in the good ol' U.S. of A.

[ocalicreek]

I have many back issues (far from a full collection - but it never would be anyway as I've stopped subscribing) and like to read them regularly. I really do think there's been a change in the quality of the magazine both in emphasis and content, and not for the better. That's just my opinion. It seems to be morphing again into something more akin to what I like to see in a magazine. Again, just my opinion. I'm not speaking in anger here, just clarifying.

The MTMI really made it easier to use those back issues as a reference to learn from folks who pioneered techniques we consider standard today. The facets of the hobby I enjoy are not as popular today as they were 40 years ago so those are the articles I look for. The MTMI made it possible for me to spend more time reading those articles than hunting them down, sifting through issue after issue. I highly valued the index for those reasons and others. It was just plain useful.

I called the folks at Kalmbach pansies because I believe the excuses they offered as to why they would not, could not, fix the index or maintain it or whatever are LAME. I'm NOT saying they're lying - that's a serious accusation and I like to give folks the benefit of the doubt. Obviously, despite what Neil B. says about how much the staff all used the index, it wasn't valuable enough in their estimation to spend the time and money making it available. I'm not going to go all conspiracy theory on them and say they're holding on to it to generate demand until it'll return as a subscription service, even though that may be a reality if they do sink the time and effort into making it work, as they'll want to recoup their investment somehow. No, we'd have just gotten an announcement page at the website sending you to the 'subscriber log-in' page, to the new and improved MTMI (minus all of the non-Kalmbach publications).

But the investment they make in the good will and brotherhood of the hobby is sorely lacking. They are the ONLY magazine to offer 'subscriber only content' on their website. Killing this index was just one more decision made that, in my OPINION, will cost them dearly in terms of PR from folks like me, with opinions like mine. IF you disagree, that's fine. But if you share the same values, you may very well feel the same way that we are getting the shaft on this one by a corporate ideology that is so self-obssessed with the present elitist trends that the past becomes worthless, only offered as quaint tributes in the pages of MR from time to time.

I see dropping the index as a slap in the face to those who built this hobby, and Kalmbach shooting themselves in the big toe, if not the whole foot. Let's disregard our history by wiping out one of the more effective means at accessing that very history. What matters is really the latest and greatest techno-gizmo and RTR models and 'anyone can build it overnight' stories. You won't find many of those kinds of articles in the musty old volumes from yesteryear.

To close on a positive note: This is again why I like the Gauge. Thank you for letting me vent and the great discourse here in this thread. I'm so very glad there are true craftsmen here who still hold to the old ways that should never be abandoned, while reaching into the future to try new techniques. This is a place for everyone and the past is just as much alive as we make it. Thanks again.

Galen

[steinjr]

The main point I was trying to make (and rather poorly at that) was that if there was/is a way to get the program to spit out the data, there are ways to transform it for use in a database program.

Yes, that much is obvious. Problem, however, seems to be in finding some reasonably rational way of exporting the data in the first place.

How much time and work is involved would depend on how much data could be output at a time. For instance, could the program output all listings for a particular publication at one time?

No clue. One would certainly hope that Kalmbach's computer people or consultants or whatever would be competent enough to evaluate the most obvious couple of ways of trying to export and transform the data, but I don't know what they have considered and what they have not considered.

Once again, I apologize if I've upset anyone with my posting. Was not my intention.

Well. I did not feel "upset" about it. I just told you what I had read about the program in question in a couple of other forums.

Kalmbach does seem to like to put information on their web site that is only available to subscribers of their publications, so I am guilty of thinking something might be amiss here.

Seems like a sensible business move to me. Any smart magazine publishing company will try to encourage subscriptions over single issue sales - that way they get their money before they produce the stuff they sell. Lowers business risk and transaction costs. Subscriptions are a tougher sell - so they offer something extra to subscribers.

Nothing specific for Kalmbach and Model Railroader. In addition to Kalmbach's MR and Carsten's RMC, I also subscribe to excellent British news magazine "The Economist".

They also offer a subscriber-only web site, with searchable archives of old articles. That service is not offered to people who buy single issues from a news kiosk. Up to each and every person to chose whether to fork over a larger amount once a year, get a discount, and get subscriber benefits, or whether to occasionally buy a single issue. Nobody is holding a gun to your head either way.

Of course, Kalmbach's competitor Carstens doesn't seem to offer much model railroading content at their web site - neither to subscribers nor non-subscribers.

MRH offers content for free - but that's their business model. Time will tell whether Joe Fugate and his partners call pull off the act that a lot of dot-coms failed at - user generated content, living by advertising income alone. I of course wish them the best of luck, but hope that they have not bet their homes on the success of their eZine.

Smile,
Stein

[steinjr]

Just a quick update on this thread.

Joe Fugate has posted on the MRH website (http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/disco...dex?page=2) that NMRA has agreed that they want to take over the maintenance of the Model Train Magazine Index, and another person has gotten hold of the original programmer (Jeff Scherb), who apparently has replied ""If Kalmbach releases their rights to the index I might be able to assist".

It has not been confirmed (at least not yet) that Kalmbach has actually given the software and it's rights to the NMRA.

Still - if they have the original programmer available, and Kalmbach actually releases it's right, it should be possible to write software to extract data from the old program without having to retort to reverse engineering of binaries.

Time will tell how this one progresses.

Smile,
Stein

[Sumpter250]

The NMRA leadership, the Kalmbach staff, and Model-Railroad-Hobbyist staff, are at the NMRA convention. Can we hope that they will have a conversation, face to face, and resolve any issues and start the retrieval processes?
I'll try to remember to ask tomorrow.
Pete

[Sumpter250]

Just a quick update on this thread.
Joe Fugate has posted on the MRH website (http://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/disco...dex?page=2) that NMRA has agreed that they want to take over the maintenance of the Model Train Magazine Index, and another person has gotten hold of the original programmer (Jeff Scherb), who apparently has replied ""If Kalmbach releases their rights to the index I might be able to assist".
It has not been confirmed (at least not yet) that Kalmbach has actually given the software and it's rights to the NMRA.
Still - if they have the original programmer available, and Kalmbach actually releases it's right, it should be possible to write software to extract data from the old program without having to resort to reverse engineering of binaries. Stein

When the NMRA convention ended this evening, the score was: NMRA, yes. Joe Fugate, yes. Kalmbach, "warming to the idea".
Don't expect anything to happen too soon, but the ball is now back in Kalmbach's court.
According to Joe, the "index" is written in "machine language" ( ones, and zeros, not a compiler. ) It will take some time, once the go-ahead is given, to get things "available".
The expectation is, that once all the legal issues that will have to be looked into, are resolved, kalmbach will come to a final decision. At this time, the chances are good that the ending will be favorable, and the index, once again, available.