Plug-n-Play decoder, non-Plug-n-Play Loco?

[P5se Camelback]

I have acquired a non-Plug-n-Play ALCO Models brass Alco S-2 which I intend to paint as a Reading S-2 in service for a number of years. I bought it because it was relatively inexpensive (cheaper than a current plastic offering of an Alco S-2,) and it seemed to me that a diesel would be a good first decoder install (get my feet wet prior to jumping in the deep end with the remotoring and installing a decoder in an older brass steam engine.)

Then I discovered that the proper Soundtraxx decoder for an S-2 (Alco 539 Turbocharged) is the TSU AT1000 Plug-n-Play for an ATLAS model of an S-2. I'm sure the decoder would work in this application, but I have a few concerns ...

The decoder is a "Plug-n-Play" style decoder, no wires, no shrink-wrap cover. The Atlas model has a non-conducting plastic shell, I have a brass shell -- very conductive! The decoder is set up (apparently) for plugs of some kind and I will most likely be using the typical color-coded wires.

I am asking for a little kind advice here and maybe even a recommendation for a speaker for in this little gem of a switcher (I haven't had a diesel model since the Varney F3 I put a single power conversion truck under in 1958!)

When I'm done with the install, and have done some magic by coating it with a few layers and dustings of atomized pigment, I will carry it with me when I visit the local (some 35+ miles away) model railraod club, a Digitrax controlled multi-level layout in its own dedicated building.

But I am seeking a little advice before I screw anything up!

[rrinker]

You'd be better served by replacing the TSU-AT1000 with a TSU-1000 which is a wired decoder. All of their sounds are avaialble on each model decoder - you aren't limited to a certain form factor decoder to get specific sounds. You can attach wires tot he right palces on the AT1000 but mounting it could be tricky, it's meant to snap right ont he existing mounting posts in an Athearn or Atlas loco I think you will have a much easier time with the plain TSU-1000 wired decoder.

And actually, Soundtraxx does not list the proper sound files for an S-2. An S-2 has a turbocharged 539 prime mover, Soundtraxx only has options with 244 and 251 prime movers. Proper sounds can be found in the QSI Revolution decoders. The Revolution-U/W is a hard wired decoder and is slightly smalelr than the Revolution-U, the U has a 9 pin plug to disconnect the decoder but it makes it slightly larger. Depending on space, and an S-2 is kinda small, the extra space savings might come in handy.

--Randy

[P5se Camelback]

You'd be better served by replacing the TSU-AT1000 with a TSU-1000 which is a wired decoder. All of their sounds are avaialble on each model decoder - you aren't limited to a certain form factor decoder to get specific sounds. You can attach wires tot he right palces on the AT1000 but mounting it could be tricky, it's meant to snap right ont he existing mounting posts in an Athearn or Atlas loco I think you will have a much easier time with the plain TSU-1000 wired decoder.

And actually, Soundtraxx does not list the proper sound files for an S-2. An S-2 has a turbocharged 539 prime mover, Soundtraxx only has options with 244 and 251 prime movers. Proper sounds can be found in the QSI Revolution decoders. The Revolution-U/W is a hard wired decoder and is slightly smaller than the Revolution-U, the U has a 9 pin plug to disconnect the decoder but it makes it slightly larger. Depending on space, and an S-2 is kinda small, the extra space savings might come in handy. --Randy

Randy, I appreciate what you are saying ... Prior to saying anything here, I wrote to Soundtraxx and explained my situation and that I understood they did not have a decoder with the Alco 539 prime mover. [At the time, I thought the brass model I was getting was an S-1 (non-turbo 539 P.M.) ... turns out, since it arrived and I've looked at it, it's an S-2 (turbo 539 P.M.)]

In response, I received ...

"Bil,
Thank you for your interest in our decoders. I am not sure where you heard we don't make an Alco 539 non turbo, we have for about a year now and the sample is up on our website.
-Jarrette "

I then took a second, closer look at the Soundtraxx site and found the 828049 TSU-AT1000 for ALCO 539 Turbocharged, which is why I mentioned that decoder in my original posting. It sounds good, (I did listen to the sound - much different from an EMD!) I just wish it was in the "wired" package. That, plus, I'd prefer to stay with the Soundtraxx over the QSI decoder as everything I have read to date make me choose the Soundtraxx decoders.

I will say that over the past three days, I've learned more about the ALCO S-1 and S-2 diesel switchers ... spotting features, H.P differences, when they arrived on Reading Company property, as well as by what date they were gone, in addition to ... which number unit got which paint scheme, and when ... than I've ever known about diesel locomotives collectively as a whole, since I had that first Varney F3!

[Charlie B]

Hi Bil.
I just checked out the Soundtraxx 539t decoder, and I will tell you, it is right on the money for the sound. Great for the turbocharged units. I have operated 3 different S-2 locomotives as well as the S-1. There is a lot of difference in the sound of the S-1 vs the S-2.
Charlie

[P5se Camelback]

Thanks for the nod, Charlie ... I thought it sounded pretty kool! Kinda "clunky"! I only say that as I have heard so many idling EMD 567's and 645's, they sound smoothly "normal" in comparison.

I thought this would be an easy "first decoder install," but just as I chose Wooten fire boxes and Camelbacks for the motive power of my Lehigh Susquehanna & Western, it seems that when I finally decided to buy a diesel, I didn't chose a "common, every day, everybody's got a few" diesel, either! How funny!

O.K., so it will be an interesting DCC decoder conversion, this Reading Company Class OE-11 Alco S-2. But I've already learned more in the past two weeks about diesels in general and Alco S-1's and S-2's in particular than I had known about diesels in total over the whole rest of my life!

Ahhh, education ... learning ... a fun, important thing, even for us "Old Farts!" [My Grandfather used to say, "A day lived without learning anything is a day wasted!"]

Thanks, again, Charlie, for the positive review on the sound! I'm even more determined to "do it right" now than I was before ... and it was that mind-set that made me write to Soundtraxx in the first place!

[Squidbait]

Hi Bil,

Go with the Atlas board Tsunami. It's $20 cheaper than the TSU1000, and has 1.5 V outputs so you can use grain-of-wheat bulbs that won't melt plastic... although with a brass model this is less of a concern, especially if you're doing it with the older, single-bulb headlights.

Additionally, I find it easier to fit the drop-in style decoders into hood units, since the pickup and headlight leads solder to each of the corners and ends, respectively, meaning not having to fold up a wiring harness to get everything to fit.

I've had good success using the 810113 speaker with a styrene enclosure in hood units. It fits snugly inside the hood, and the taller you can make the enclosure, the better bass response you'll get.

[P5se Camelback]

Thank, 'Bait! I'll take that advice as good information and maybe PM you with questions as they arise! I suppose I can purchase the required Standard DCC Color Coded wire to wire up a decoder like this which is intended for some sort of plug.

If you have any ideas for how to isolate the board and all of its components from shorting against the inside of the brass shell or unintended touching (by the installer) that would be appreciated. I mean, the other decoders are "packaged" in what appears to be a "shrink-wrap tube" which protects them from touching anything (or being touched by anything.) Having worked in the computer industry for more than a couple minutes (and having my own pair of "grounding wrist straps,") I am just a bit nervous around open PC Poards.

And I'll look into that speaker ... if you think it works well inside a diesel shell, I'll take your word for it. Is there anything else I should know? How's 'bout a fat capacitor to get the S-2 over those dodgy spots on the track?

[rrinker]

Well, if they do have this sound set then they need to do a better job of updating their web site, because under the list of product numbers they do NOT list the 539.
The rest of what I said about switching to the wired one still stands though.

If you stick with the AT decoder though, whatever you do, do NOT totally wrap it in insulating material, it will probably overheat. I would fabricate a thin shelf of styrene to mount the decoder on to keep it from touching the motor and drive train. If there's sufficient clearance between the top of the decoder and the shell, that should be all you need. A couple strips of kapton tape will hold the decoder to the 'shelf'. There's no need to go nuts with the wires, the connection points are fairly close at hand, there are two sets of truck pickup connections, on at each end of the board, and the motor comes off two terminals ont eh side which will probably be right over the motor.

As a side note, despite the great sound I can't get 100% behind Tsunamis, partly because of motor control issues and the lack of Start/mid/max, forcing you to use speed tables to tune the speed, and second because of their still being the one sound decoder that needs a program track booster to work on most DCC systems. I installed a QSI Revolution-U for someone and unlike the OEM QSI in the earlier Broadway Limited locos, it worked on my program track compeltely, with no issues - so QSI figured it out, I don't know why Soundtraxx can't (it really is just a resistor and diode that needs to be added to prevent the inrush current). Of course there's always programming on the main, or in the case of my Zephyr, Blast Mode programming. But blast mode or a booster defeats the purpose of a low current program track where you can safely check things out prior to putting the loco on the full current main and frying somethign if it's not wired correctly. I see program track boosters as just another upsale to solve a problem that shouldn't be there in the first place.

--Randy

[P5se Camelback]

Randy ...

On the Tsunami TSU-AT1000 Digital Sound Decoder page, scroll down to the "828049 TSU-AT1000 for ALCO 539 Turbocharged" and you will see it listed there.

I agree that it would be nice to have the option of using a "standard" TSU-1000 "hard-wired" decoder as not everyone has an Atlas Plug-n-Play locomotive that uses the Also 539T Prime Mover! If such an animal were available, I would, by all means, use it! But if that is not an option, I will have to use what is available (but still emits the correct sounds) and make it work.

I'm an "old school," make something out of nothing kind of guy and with 35+ years of conjuring up products and seeing them through to production and then getting the satisfaction of seeing something that started in my head, sit on the shelf in the marketplace and watch people buy it [or even cooler, to go to someone's house and see the desk that I designed in their home office,] this type of problem is viewed as a mere bump in the road.

I will make it work, one way or another ... and I will document it, along with any foul-ups along the way, here on this thread, because ...

:needpics:

[rrinker]

Hmm, interesting. They ALSO have the 539 in the Micro-Tsunami 750, which is hard wired. If the loco draws less than 3/4 amp stalled, that might be an option as well. All on account of space. I know space is at a premium in my Proto S-1's, and the only real differences are on the outside - the turbo stack and wider radiator grills.
<soapbox>
Also, this illustrates why I think Soundtraxx made a mistake in not having the sounds programmable. Not necessarily user-defined - just programmable, like QSI does. The hardware is the same on all Tsunami boards, it's just the form factor that is different, and some have resistors added, etc. So the same 'code' woudl run on all of them. Instead they have dozens of SKUs, combinations of form factor and sound sets. QSI, the decoders are all the same. One SKU per form factor. You can load whichever sound set into any of them. Order from a reputable dealer like Tony's, Litchfield, or Ulrich and they'll preload whichever one you want so you do not need to buy the programmer. If you later swap it to a different loco, you can either get the programmer and DIY, or send it to the dealer, or take it to someone who ahs the programmer. No sound editing experience is needed when it's done this way - there's nothign for you to edit, the manufacturere has taken care of all that work. Non-programmable is restrictive, completely user progoammable is just beyond the typical hobbyist - plus how many have 'ins' plus the required equipment to climb on operating equipment to record the sounds?, the user programmable but with pre-made sound sets way seems to be the best compromise between flexibility and ease of use. There's no technical reason why the TSU-1000 isn't offered with the 539 sounds - in fact if someone asks I'm sure Sountraxx will make it. But there's the point - if you buy the decoder now and use a 'close' sound and later they come out with the correct sound - you have to buy a new decoder! I see people offering the new Atlas Gensets with sound, but they are using what sounds like a turbo 710 sound set - way wrong. Soundtraxx (I think) has said they will soon have a proper Genset sound - if I could reprogram it then I could start now with the incorrect sound just so it has sound, and fix it later very easily.

</soapbox>

--Randy

[P5se Camelback]

Hmm, interesting. They ALSO have the 539 in the Micro-Tsunami 750, which is hard wired. If the loco draws less than 3/4 amp stalled, that might be an option as well. All on account of space. I know space is at a premium in my Proto S-1's, and the only real differences are on the outside - the turbo stack and wider radiator grills. ...
... There's no technical reason why the TSU-1000 isn't offered with the 539 sounds - in fact if someone asks I'm sure Sountraxx will make it. ... --Randy

Aha! Out in front of you ...

... when I received the response from my initial email, the response signed by Jarrette Ireland, I then fired back an email thanking Soundtraxx for the timely response, and stating that although the model, an ALCO Models brass Alco S-2 (which requires the sounds of an Alco 539 Turbo) has a can motor, it is not a recent model can motor and that although I had not yet tested the unit for amperage draw, I would still be much more comfortable running a TSU-1000 than a TSU-750 in my model, and would it be at all possible to acquire such an item?

Time will tell what the response will be!

But I do appreciate your thoughts, Randy, and I whole-heartedly agree on the basis of economy of raw materials/parts and number of SKU's stocked ... If we built four "form factor" decoders, each of which could run the same machine code, it would seem to me to be a much more efficient operation.

I think they are here in Florida ... I'll have to look up where ... maybe I could schedule a meeting/intervew as a potential design consultant ... what the hey! ... I've got credentials.

[Squidbait]

Hi Guys,

Some interesting points, but 1st, the isolation - line the interior of the shell with electrical tape. Cheap, thin, and sound-deadening (prevents ringing).

Second, I can program Tsunamis on the main with my MRC Prodigy Advanced2 and Wireless... I've never had a problem with them there. Not having tried to match loco speeds, I've found the Tsunami motor control excellent, and the choice of speed tables sufficient for good performance. I've never tried MU-ing locos of different manufacturers, so I can't say how much of a bother this is.

As for the Micro, I wouldn't, for a couple of reasons. 1st, it is only 3/4 of an amp. Second, there's no extra lighting outputs. F0 front and rear is all you get. No extras for strobes, fireboxes, markers, ditchlights, etc.

Both the Tsunami AT and the Micro come with a stay-alive capacitor, so no worries there. In the case of the AT decoder, it's already hard-wired to the board.

As far as the QSI's go, their sound is good, but a miggle I have with them is the song-and-dance I've needed to do to program a long address. Unlike the Tsunami where I can change the long address in ops mode, every QSI I've used I've had to go through the change CV49/50/56 (or whatever, I always have to pull out the manual to do it) to the value for CV 17, then the value for CV 18. All the Tsunami's I've used have taken long-addresses in ops mode direct from the Prodigy.

I agree that Soundtraxx missed the boat by not making the decoders programmable, but given their other strengths, it's a weakness I'm willing to accept.

[Charlie B]

I noticed the S-1 decoder (non turbo) has a Hancock air whistle option. I also noticed the bell is correct, the original bells were a piece of well casing hung under the frame. They didn't go clang, they went clunk. The 539 non turbo was right on the money too (their sound file).
I wonder how many S-1s had the Hancock air whistle. I know one for sure.
Charlie

[Squidbait]

Actually, thinking about where you're going to put the speaker... if there's not much room over the gear tower at the end of the hood, try making the cab the speaker enclosure. Put a floor in it just above the gear tower, mount your speaker in that, and then seal the cab windows, the floor, and any other openings in the cab with either RC airplane canopy glue or MicroScale's Krystal Kleer. I've had good success using a 3/4" round speaker in the floor of Proto SW7s this way.

[P5se Camelback]

I have read every word with great hunger and have then sat back to digest the input with an ounce of fine Irish malt sipping spirits after every reading. Tasty both mentally and physically!

I appreciate the inputs by The Squidbait and by Randy ... first hand knowledge of decoders and their installation tricks and eventually programming speed curves, and adding capacitors, etc. The thoughts behind making the decoder choice is well-laid-out by both of you.

And Charlie, your input from a 1:1 scale perspective is invaluable. I've had a question up on another forum re: the "voice" of an S-2 for a couple days, there have been hits but no answers. But here, Charlie offers "voice info" without being asked ... but then ... this is Big Blue at The-Gauge! My next question is, though, what did the Reading #'s 42 through 47 sound like ... and can you tell what manufacturer's horn by just looking, or must you actually put an ear out in front of it to know?

I have yet to hear back from Mr. Ireland of Soundtraxx ... I'm awaiting a response to my second question of the potential of an Alco 539T in a TSU-1000 package ...

And, Yo! Squid! That #810113 speaker is a serious sound generator! That thing looks like it would fill the whole hood of a diminutive S-2! I'm going to mock the speaker up in corrugated (what a medium!) and see if there's room inside there! Thanks!

Keep the input coming ... I'm loving the learning experience!