river help needed

[LynnB]

I guess this could have gone into scenery.
I've been thinking about putting in a 3" x 3foot river but I'm a bit leary about going at it and possibly just need some suggestions and maybe ...
So here's the issue , I have plywood top with seveal support beams underneath( not an issue to cut through) , I want a stone/ gravel river bottom rocks protruding, I want the river to have some depth , I need the banks to allow the fsm super saw mill to not be too high about banks as rail has to be able to be used. I know its not a real big deal to make a river bottom.I got the Frarey modeling water dvd for xmas and he shows how to do an awsome river but the river is a stand alone for scenery only and interferes with no rails or structures. What I'm thinking is either cut a long strip\hole into the plywood top and building up the base\river bottom or using 3/4 white foam board as the river banks and build up.

Here's some pics of the area , you can see the large foot print out of paper and the river will have to come off the two bridges and behind the sawmill will need to be a moving pool then to the river and perhaps finish the river going into the stone culvert into side of hill. I would like to have the river bottom a 1/2" lower than the sawmill pool like a small falls\rapids dropping into the river bottom , this adds to the problems I think . The brown paint is river size. Also you can see the switch which will hold a rail for the sawmill and if need be I can probably raise the rail a bit to fit better for the sawmill.

So any thoughts?

[Drew]

Hi Lynn,
It looks like what you’re planning there will work fine…I think it’s more visually pleasing if you’re modeling a moving river to have it look like it’s coming from somewhere & going somewhere…if your river has a dead end, try to hide or disguise this fact by having it disappear from view, or “flow” off the edge of the layout…
I’m facing a similar problem on this little HO layout I’ve been puttering around on with my grandson…
We wanted a river with the track going over it, but we don’t have much space…also, because of the benchwork, the river bed ended up on two levels, one about an inch higher than the other…So what we’re wanting to do is hide the fact that the upstream part of the river actually dead-ends into a hillside…Hopefully when we get some scenery done, it will look like the river is flowing out of the woods, over a waterfall, then under the track, & off the layout…

Here are a couple of construction photos of the scene we’ve been working on…







PS…this is my grandson’s Thomas The Tank layout…he’s not that interested in anything being “correct”, hence the quicky bridge made by cutting down some plaster tunnel portals & simply gluing them to the sides of the roadbed!
I’ve also been thinking that this might be a good place for a grist mill along this little stream…

[LynnB]

That looks like it would work well for you Drew especially uptop you can have a stone culvert around the corner, plus you can do deep banks , my issue is I'm on flat plywood and I will have the sawmill which needs the pool behind it and the rail in front of it. The rest of the river I think I can get away with building up the banks to give the river depth, I think it may be more visual trickery I need.

[Drew]

Keep in mind that as far as the modeled “water” goes, we really only model the surface of it (maybe to a depth of 1/8” or so)
So as long as the bed of your stream (or pond) is lower than your track, structures, or any other scenery, it should look fine…
You mentioned cutting through the plywood…You could do that & just glue something to the bottom of the wood to fill the hole…this would give you at least the thickness of the plywood to use as a river bank…???

[LynnB]

Keep in mind that as far as the modeled “water” goes, we really only model the surface of it (maybe to a depth of 1/8” or so)
So as long as the bed of your stream (or pond) is lower than your track, structures, or any other scenery, it should look fine…
You mentioned cutting through the plywood…You could do that & just glue something to the bottom of the wood to fill the hole…this would give you at least the thickness of the plywood to use as a river bank…???

I'm thinking maybe if I cut through the plywood at the lower part of the river may be better then the entire river this way I'd get a better illusion for the little waterfallinto the deeper river.

[Drew]

...I'm thinking maybe if I cut through the plywood at the lower part of the river may be better then the entire river this way I'd get a better illusion for the little waterfallinto the deeper river.

I think that a good idea...I think having scenery on various levels really enhances the visual appeal of the layout...

This little layout we've been working on is just a circle of 18" radius curvedsectional trainset track...It's a flat oval, but I'm hoping that by having levels of scenery above & below the track level, it'll look like there's more to it than just a circle of track...

[doctorwayne]

Rather than cut the plywood, why not add a thin layer of foam where you want the millpond, keeping it below the nearby scenery (build-up the scenery if you have to), then add a dam at the downstream end of the pond. Use an even thinner layer of foam (or plaster over screen) to build-up the river banks downstream from the dam. It wouldn't have to be any higher than a layer of corrugated cardboard, as you can make the banks more distinct when you add trees and groundcover. The plywood between the two banks is the riverbed. The river can be level all the way to the stone culvert - the rising roadbed behind it will make it appear to be going downhill, and you can exaggerate this even more by building-up the banks as they get closer to the culvert.

Wayne

[upnick]

A waterfall river is sometihng i am doing and the problem of where the water is going to came along .......after chatting to Josh and Tom two ideas were suggested a pipe or a tunnel ...... i went with the Tunnel the water dissapearing to an underground cave structure as here ........

[LynnB]

Rather than cut the plywood, why not add a thin layer of foam where you want the millpond, keeping it below the nearby scenery (build-up the scenery if you have to), then add a dam at the downstream end of the pond. Use an even thinner layer of foam (or plaster over screen) to build-up the river banks downstream from the dam. It wouldn't have to be any higher than a layer of corrugated cardboard, as you can make the banks more distinct when you add trees and groundcover. The plywood between the two banks is the riverbed. The river can be level all the way to the stone culvert - the rising roadbed behind it will make it appear to be going downhill, and you can exaggerate this even more by building-up the banks as they get closer to the culvert.

Wayne

Thanks Wayne I can't say I didn't think of going with a thin layer for a base and building up the sides. I decided or should I say I commited myself to cutting out the top ( well especially once I got the jigsaw running ). I don't plan on a log dump, the river is more for scenery and a place for the sawmill workers to go for a dip. Once I found my sawmill base needed to be bigger I realized the river would have to have a smaller area by the bridge, the sawmill needs to be turned more, which is no biggy seeing as structures on angles usually look better.


For the upper I do plan on building up a bit, this is much easier on the upper level.

[LynnB]

A waterfall river is sometihng i am doing and the problem of where the water is going to came along .......after chatting to Josh and Tom two ideas were suggested a pipe or a tunnel ...... i went with the Tunnel the water dissapearing to an underground cave structure as here ........

Thats a very good idea, I realized that a river coming out of or going into a stone culvert is the right move and can be done just about anywhere. If need be you can angle the stone culvert more if you have to.

[ocalicreek]

This is more for Drew than Lynn, after having seen your neat little Thomas layout, but still it may be useful for anyone. One thing hardly EVER modeled is a mountain spring. Rivers have to start somewhere! Some just trickle down from the rock faces, others bubble up from a deep pool. Either way it would be interesting to see. The deep pool version is an opportunity for all sorts of mini-scenes from fishing to swimming to whatever.

And don't forget, railroads & construction engineers would move or divert a river as necessary in order to maximize profits on the railway, if this meant shortening the route or decreasing the grade, etc. There's probably a prototype for it, and besides, a neat little scene like a grist mill (especially if the wheel turns) will steal the show and most folks won't focus on where the river begins or ends. The FSM mill should accomplish the same thing.

Galen

[nachoman]

This is going to be a great looking scene!