Shamrock Ave. Ft. Worth, TX

[macmiller]

Hey Guys!

I've been lurking here for a while and have a couple of posts, this is my first thread so bear with me, lol!

I have built a 11'x1' shelf and had plans for a N scale ISL, but am starting to wonder if I should switch to HO. It's just much more practical for switching and I really want SOUND!

I don't want to tear down any existing benchwork, nor do I have the room to squeeze out another 4 or so inches that would make it work the trouble to rebuild.

I use corel draw everyday at work, and don't have the patience to learn xtrkcad at this point. I'd just like to know what will fit as far as turnouts, etc.

Here's the proto on google maps:

http://g.co/maps/4c967

Here's my rough plan from Corel Draw:



My rough plan would be to use the narrow shelf at the bottom as a fiddle yard representing the runaround off the the main line. The loop at the right is pretty tight at 15"r, but I want to hide it in between buildings that the proto snakes thru and will hide the tightness of the curve. I'd like to switch Felt's Oil (lubricants), LeeCo (metal dist.) and the focus of the layout be the Gachman Metals scrap yard. Jahn's supply does not have rail service, but I'd change the business to something that would need a couple cars from time to time and make it a removable "bump" off the front of the shelf.

Opinions? Input? Ideas? Anyone like to redraw it so scale? I'd be most appreciative!

thanks!

[FCIN]

Howdy! And welcome to the best model railroad forum on the Internet!

Here's a plan I threw together in HO scale, based on your drawing. The plan is 11 feet wide, but I had to guess at the width at the right side. I must be fairly close figuring it at 36in wide with a removable staging track that I have running out to a length of 4 feet.     Plan is using a 15 inch radius curve, but that tight radius will of course limit you pretty much to 40ft length cars and short locomotives on the order of EMD NW, SW or ALCo S series switchers, assuming you're going to use diesel power. Since the tight curve will be pretty much hidden and operating at scale speeds of 10mph or less, you could probably get away with using 50ft cars though. The spur going to the oil dealer is 22 inch radius, but you might go down to 18 inch for that one.

That is certainly an interesting industrial spur and I love the way the track goes between those structures, with very little clearance. Wish there was room to model that, but of course we all have to make concessions. The plan is using two (2) Peco Medium Radius right hand and one (1) left hand and 50ft cars look and operate just fine with those. The Peco turnouts are very reliable and do not require the use of ground throws or other methods to throw them. As you can see, the plan will work in HO scale in the space you have and captures the look of the prototype fairly well.

I'm assuming that a typical train would consist of at most 4 cars and there is ample room on the plan to work the industries. Maybe two gons in and out of the scrap dealer and a car or two for the other two industries. You could either have one crew work the spur, pushing and pulling cars as necessary or have two crews work the spur, with one working the trailing point industries and the other working just the scrap yard. Lot's of prototypical possibilities here.

Doing the plan in N scale would of course give you a lot more space to work with and even allow you to duplicate the track running between the structures; but I understand you wanting to go with DCC and SOUND equipped HO locomotives! I've never heard an N scale sound equipped model, but I'm sure it doesn't compare to the same model in HO scale. I've actually had to reduce the sound output on a couple of my HO locomotives so I wouldn't have to wear ear plugs like on the prototype!

Incidentally, I drew this plan using the trial version of AnyRail http://www.anyrail.com/. It's a very easy to use program with many features, including accurate templates for most of the better track available. The trail version does limit you to 50 items on a plan, but I've rarely hit that limit designing track plans to fit a length of 18in X 20-26 feet. Give it a try.

Oh yes, if you get the AnyRail program - contact me via private message and I'll send you the AnyRail track plan file for you to work with. It will show you the track lengths, etc., if you go with the plan.

[Justinmiller171]

What era are you planning on using for your layout?

That 15" curve will keep you from running anything larger than a 40" car, tight curves weren't that rare pre-1940, especially in
Industrial areas like you have on your plan.

Another question I have is what type of engine do you want to run?

Steam, diesel, or electric? I would go with either a small GE switcher or an electric, although those are harder to get sound for.

If I were building this layout, I would go with the 30's or 40's, using a small switcher such as an NW-2, BLI makes some good sound-equipped switcher for a good price: http://www.broadway-limited.com/paragon2-2.aspx

[FCIN]

Justin has a point as far as the 15 inch radius curve. You can operate some 50ft cars on a curve that tight, but you'd have to be careful as to what models you used. As for motive power, the BLI NW-2 is great, but it has a recommended minimum radius of 18 inches, as will most HO locomotives of that size. I just took a close look at mine and have my doubts about it operating reliably on a curve that tight. You'd probably have to go with a GE 70 ton as your largest power.

As for the era, I'd go with the late 60's - plenty of suitable models available as far as gons and tank cars that are in the 40ft length range and 40ft box cars would still be quite common. I checked the web page for Jahn's supply and looks like they deal in cast iron and steel pipe and fittings, so gons and box cars would be suitable for that industry. You could also go with a layout based in the early 50's and use small steam power (0-4-0 or 0-6-0) if that doesn't bother you.

As I mentioned in my previous posting, IF you did go with N scale, you could really capture the look of this spur and of course the 15 inch radius curve (if needed) would be a wide radius curve in N scale. I haven't tried to work up an N scale version of this spur, but in my mind I could see eliminating the turn back curve completely and use the right side of the space for staging, with the spur branching off and going through the structures as on the prototype spur. You could also have another industry or two on the main part of the plan. Something to think about.

[paulus_jas]

hi,
since you did not mention a prototype i could mention some other possibilities.
The brick canyon part of the Patch by Keith Jordan could easily be fitted into your space; also in HO.
In Great Model Railroads 2012 you'll find beside the Patch the Kansas City Liberty Street , which can be modelled in your space as well. Just build the warehouses as background models.
Plans about harbour scenes around NYC could be done as well. Your plan reminds me to lots i've seen on here lately; the less is more approach like in Lance Mindheim's plans.
My experience with 15" radii is pretty clear, no problems at all with 50 feet cars; if ..... pushing with low speeds and a soft hand on the throttle. Since (un)coupling is done away from the tight curve, the plan is doable for sure.
You did not provide us with a drawing of your room. The size of the part with the oildealer at the right seems not to be carved in stone; nor the staging/fiddling track. Do you have some freedom there? Nice to know before going to the drawing board.
Smile
Paul

[macmiller]

Thanks for the input guys. Gives me hope!

I thought I had put the era and road. I had written a much longer post and accidentally hit back and lost it all!!

The era is the present. The road is the Ft. Worth and Western (FWWR). They have great pics on their site, http://fwwr.net/

Power would be a GP 50 since Athearn now makes them in the FWWR scheme. http://www.athearn.com/Products/Default....D=ATH77839

I'd need open gondolas and tank cars mostly. Once I decide on what to make the industry on the bump produce, I'll figure out what type of cars. I'm kind of thinking like a hardwood and door supply house. I have a neat all door plywood car that would logically be at a business like that. It could also receive bulkhead flats and centerbeams of lumber.

I'm looking to getting this thing going. I really only work on the layout around this time of year, but maybe now I'll be motivated to keep at it.

thanks!

[MrBill]

If you're planning to operate, there are few uses for 15" radius track in HO except traction or certain urban sidings if you model early rail. Modern era: #6's and as wide radii as possible. Test it out real good.

[Justinmiller171]

Here is a track-plan I made in Xtrkcad:



The train will be staged as though it had just entered the spur, thus eliminated the tight curves, an oil tank will help hide where the track meets the backdrop.

[MrBill]

This is in Ticonderoga HB. If you're feeling a little ambitious, here's some extra on-layout staging using a sector plate.

[macmiller]

Thanks Ed, AnyRail was a dream compared to xtrakcad.

Justin, your idea was an idea I had as well, and may still be done. If I do end up doing the tight return loop, it will help "extend the run" by having to creep through the turn and do an imaginary run around "on the main". Makes the layout mentally bigger.

MrBill, I'm not that ambitious, but is a good idea. Love your engineer's handwriting though!

Here's what I've got now, basically the same, but in AnyRail so that I know what will fit.


thoughts?

[FCIN]

Thanks Ed, AnyRail was a dream compared to xtrakcad.

You're quite welcome. AnyRail is easy to use with very little learning curve, unlike some of the other track planning software. I especially like the fact that the turnout track sections are very accurate, so you know that what you see is what you get when you actually lay the track.

Here's what I've got now, basically the same, but in AnyRail so that I know what will fit.
thoughts?

I think the plan captures the look of the prototype spur - always a plus. Like the way you have the curve hidden behind and running between the structure flats, which also gives you the look of the prototype.

I would recommend that you move the switch leading to TBD Lumber & Door to the right about 12 inches to give yourself more room for switching that industry. You don't want to cut it too fine.

Any chance that the staging track wing can be made longer, like the 4 foot length I had? Not really necessary, but would give you a bit longer run before you enter the switching area.

Enjoyed looking at the FWWR web site and especially their customer list. You never know what interesting ideas you'll find on a list like that.

[Justinmiller171]

Here is what a GP-50 would look like on 15" curves in Xtrkcad:


As you can see it is extremely tight, I don't know if it would even fit on the track, there would also be problems with the couplers, even at slow speeds it might derail the train.

Now if 15" track works then great, in an industrial area there is nothing wrong with it visually.

I suggest you get a piece of 15" track and put the engine on it to see how it works, hiding the track with tight curves might be a problem if there is a derailment, derailments will always occur in the worst locations .

[Southern Tuxedo]

I have a question…

Would heavily weighting the rolling stock help it track better through tight radius curves and hopefully avoid derailments?

Mark

[Justinmiller171]

I have a question…

Would heavily weighting the rolling stock help it track better through tight radius curves and hopefully avoid derailments?

Possibly, though there would still be problems with the couplers, and the engine's axles can only be rotated to a certain degree.

I think I have a piece of 15" track laying around somewhere, I will try to test it tomorrow.

[macmiller]

Oof! That is tight. I have a 4 axle I can play with to see what works. And whatever radius it ends up at, I'd make the flats removable in case of a derail.

I need to measure again the length of the fiddle track leg, that was a guess from memory. I could make it longer w/o much effort.

The heavy cars are a good idea. I think cars should weigh more anyway especially for shorter trains on small layouts. Makes it feel like it actually is pulling something.