Poll: How old are you?
You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
0-20
1.69%
1 1.69%
21-40
23.73%
14 23.73%
41-60
45.76%
27 45.76%
61-80
27.12%
16 27.12%
81+
1.69%
1 1.69%
Total 59 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

The future of model railroading.
#16
I just have to ask.... how many "0" year old's voted in this pole??? Sorry, the zero made me laugh..
 My other car is a locomotive, ARHS restoration crew  
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#17
I think the hobby will remain, but I do think it might depend on how 'toys' are marketted, and might be different from country to country.
Let me give you my observations:
I grew up in the Netherlands, in my teenage years, we had the first generations of home computers, gameboys etc coming up. I was into modelrailroading then too. It was shocking to see how the 'traditional hobbies' section in the local toy shops shrunk and made way for shelfs of computerised toys and games. , after about 8 years, there were no model trains for sale anymore, the 1st generation playstation was available and there was hardly anything 'craft' related for sale anymore. I've since revisited the same shop 20 yrs later while in town visiting family, and the situation has not changed, there's a bit of lego, and dolls etc, some puzzles, and the rest is computer games etc...
About 12 years ago, I moved to the UK, a similar toy store here still sells quite a bit of craft hobby supplies, model ships, planes, model trains (although 99.9% UK railroad models) etc etc. fast forward to today, and that is still the case, it is still looking pretty alive in the UK, and I'm wondering if this is because there are still many arts and craft shows organised, people here grow up with it, and perhaps this has it's influence on how people perceive these hobbies here. It appears there is also still a bit of a 'culture' on traditional hobbies in germany, but all and all the hobby has suffered. (Big manufacturers like Fleischmann, Roco, Marklin have all gone bankrupt over the past 10-15 years, and were restarted/reorganised mergers etc etc to keep them going, but nothing is like it was 15 years ago with big catalogs with loads of different models, it's a few models, loads of colour schemes and limited runs now..)
But comparing the Netherlands , UK and Germany, the cultural approach seems different, and toy shops looking for fast sales haven't helped either in some cases.

For young people, there may be a bit more involved:
It appears that 'peer pressure' also plays a role in young people not taking up the hobby, being made fun of because you 'play with trains', the general public probably has visions of an oval of track, with a train running around at high speeds, while you're wearing a conductors had and blow a whistle or whatever..... They don't see the craft involved, and as mentioned before by others, 'instant gratification' is what people are after, long term planning and goals are not what they seem to want, but is that their choice, or is it because they don't get shown that there is another way (not seeing model trains in a toy store when you grow up doesn't help things here...)

Koos
Be sure to visit my model railroad blog at <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.namrr.blogspot.com">http://www.namrr.blogspot.com</a><!-- m -->
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#18
A strange phenomenon I notice over the years is when I was a teen the hobby was full of old men..As a old man I notice the hobby is full of younger men.

I do believe the hobby will survive but,at a higher price strain as more and more younger modelers demands finer details-as a example the new Genesis GP38-2.The simple BB/RTR GP38-2 no longer fits their hobby demands..

What does this mean in reality? It means future layouts will exceed anything to date as far as correct details,excellent scenery etc.

However,there will always be a need for low end affordable models available and I fully believe Bachmann plans to corner that market-example their S4 with DCC/Sound can be had for as low as $99.00.Their DCC GP7/9 and RS3 as low as $49.00..Their DCC GP35 as low as $34.99

A interesting future is shaping up..
Larry
Engineman

Summerset Ry

Make Safety your first thought, Not your last!  Safety First!
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#19
Brakie Wrote:I do believe the hobby will survive but,at a higher price strain as more and more younger modellers demands finer details-as a example the new Genesis GP38-2.The simple BB/RTR GP38-2 no longer fits their hobby demands..

I think that is because modellers also strive for realism in operations, an increasing number of new modellers are choosing ISLs for starter layouts rather than the traditional 4x8, basic equipment such as Bachmann silver series are being phased out for more detailed equipment.

I think another reason why prices are increasing is that people my age are going for DCC rather than traditional DC, and almost all DCC-equipped locos are very detailed, I am sure any modeller my age would be okay running an Athearn blue-box loco if it had DCC-equipped.
Justin Miller
Modeling the Lebanon Industrial Railway (LIRY)
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#20
In a time of global economic recessions, increasingly expensive models is not the profitable way to go. Traditionally, this will force many smaller manufactures of specialty and niche products out of business and leave only the major assembly line manufacturers, something that is not in the best interests of hobbyists.

Something I noticed long ago as a military modeler - as the prices of the kits increased, the young people looked but the older people were the buyers. In the two LHS's in my area that pattern is the norm, and that isn't the way to maintain a viable hobby.
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#21
Too Long; Didn't Read- Young people's lives are chaotic and they don't have enough monetary resources for much of anything, let alone expensive trains. Today's 40 year olds were the 16 yeards who couldn't afford it when they were young. The interest hasn't really went away.

MountainMan Wrote:In a time of global economic recessions, increasingly expensive models is not the profitable way to go. Traditionally, this will force many smaller manufactures of specialty and niche products out of business and leave only the major assembly line manufacturers, something that is not in the best interests of hobbyists.

Something I noticed long ago as a military modeler - as the prices of the kits increased, the young people looked but the older people were the buyers. In the two LHS's in my area that pattern is the norm, and that isn't the way to maintain a viable hobby.

While I Absolutely agree with the above quote, I get the feeling the that its not so much that the hobby is alienating young people, or that there is any lack of interest in the hobby. I think its more that the overwelming number of people who can afford the time and money investment in model trains are the 40 somethings.

This is not because the prices are alienating young people, but because it makes sense to cater to the demographic who is spending the most on your product.

I do think that eventually these hyper exoensive models are going to start alienating people from the hobby regardless of who they are. Unless you can drop a few hundred every month for every "limited run" announcement, it can get very frustrating.

MountainMan Wrote:I feel that the hobby must either expand and keep up with the changing times or it will eventually wither and die due to it's exponentially increasing expense and the changing areas of interest of the MTV and Computerized Gadgetry Generations, which are no longer even aware of much of past history and could care less. Their interests lie with such things as "fighting robots" and electronically controlled dinosaurs. The advent of the microchip and it's subsequent applications, coupled with their shortened attention spans, means that immediate action and gratification dominates their world, while our world is based on long attention spans and delayed gratification, such as required to build fine scale working models and completely scenic a layout. It's going to come down to evolve or die, as LHS's go out of business every year. It's increasingly rare to see younger people in model railroad hobby shops.

Again, I'm not sure that the lack of "young people" is implying the death of the hobby. There are plenty of practical problems involved. Lets just assume for instance, that "Jimmy" is interested in model trains. He remember's Grandpa's set, read a few books, and he is looking to get started.

If Jimmy is younger (13-16), he needs parental support and money. Parental support is a big one. Jimmy likely may not be content with an EZ track oval on the floor for long, and just displaying stuff on a shelf can get old just as quickly. Jimmy needs permission from parents to get the space to construct any sort of layout (being a module or 4x8). Even if Jimmy's parents have the necessary tools to construct a layout (and not every home has this equipment), he'll still need them to either show him how to use it, or build it themselves if they don't trust little Jimmy with power tools. Its entirely possible Jimmy's parents will say "No, you're not building a model railroad", and then thats the end of the line right there.

Jimmy then needs to contend with the money issue. the basic wood and track required for even a 4x8 can get very expensive VERY quickly, before its even built. Does Jimmy get an allowance? Is he working (not many kids under 16 appear to be able to get jobs, at least in my expirience)? If not, he's going to have convince his parents to give him some (i don't know how many parents pay for their childs every whim), or use up some reserve money perhaps from christmas or his birthday. Lets not forget there may be other things on Jimmy's plate. Suppose his girlfriend Jenny wants to go out (and her birthday is coming), or there is some sort of activity Jimmy wants to participate in? Jimmy already only gets a little bit of money, and if he uses it all on model trains, there won't be anything left for anything else.

I don't think its really fair to accuse Jimmy of a short attention span and desiring of instant gratification when limited time and money don't necessarily make it easy for a kid to walk into a hobby shop every month and pick something up. A young person also has little expirence, and not the benefit of our 20:20 hindsight.

Even when Jimmy gets older and graduates highschool, he is looking at car payments, insurance, college, and a job. He may be making more than he did, but he is paying more than he was before. College coursework is more intense than it was in highschool, and then he needs to work between in order to pay the bills. Jimmy is going to be tired after the day is done, and he still has to study for some midterm and write a report. Even if he has managed to move out, most people's inital homes and apartments are small. If he is in college dorm, there may be no space for Jimmy's hobby. Jimmy knows this isn't a permanent place, so why build something he can't take with him? Perhaps he is still with Jenny, who now likes to go out every week. Again, its becoming very unrealistic to maintain the hobby. There is to much going on, and not enough time, and still not enough money.

Jimmy may well be able to pull off buying some nice locomotive every once in a while without his girlfriend asking him "why aren't you spending that on a date with me?", but thats going to be a rare moment.

I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons that I cannot even think of. I know i'm in the latter situation, There is no time or money for anything anymore, its all school and work. I'm not complaining, I love my major and I enjoy where I work, but there is often no money left for the hobby budget, and not a whole lot of free time I can devote to the trains. While I don't expect to have projects done instantly, there are many projects i've started a year ago that have made little progress, simply because I just could not get to it.


Ultimately, when Jimmy is growing older and more stable, with a larger apartment or a home, and a steady job someplace with a higher income. He has more freedom in his environment, and can now safely invest the money into a model railroad, and likely can set aside the time to do it.
Modeling New Jersey Under the Wire 1978-1979.  
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#22
I think, as with all things, the hobby will just continue to evolve and change. No matter whether it's generations past or future, kids, especially boys have and will always be drawn to trains. Instead of that Big Boy steam engine or GP40 diesel, the trains will look much more like some of the monorails we see today. I can see where the difference in the future might be instead of having a scale layout, they may have "layouts" on their computers....as we already see with some of the software available already.
Cheers,
Richard

T & A Layout Build http://bigbluetrains.com/forum/viewtopic...=46&t=7191
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#23
e-paw Wrote:I just have to ask.... how many "0" year old's voted in this pole??? Sorry, the zero made me laugh..

So did the 1-10 numbers. Cheers
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#24
Green_Elite_Cab Wrote:Too Long; Didn't Read- Young people's lives are chaotic and they don't have enough monetary resources for much of anything, let alone expensive trains. Today's 40 year olds were the 16 yeards who couldn't afford it when they were young. The interest hasn't really went away.

While I Absolutely agree with the above quote, I get the feeling the that its not so much that the hobby is alienating young people, or that there is any lack of interest in the hobby. I think its more that the overwelming number of people who can afford the time and money investment in model trains are the 40 somethings.

This is not because the prices are alienating young people, but because it makes sense to cater to the demographic who is spending the most on your product.

I do think that eventually these hyper exoensive models are going to start alienating people from the hobby regardless of who they are. Unless you can drop a few hundred every month for every "limited run" announcement, it can get very frustrating.

Again, I'm not sure that the lack of "young people" is implying the death of the hobby. There are plenty of practical problems involved. Lets just assume for instance, that "Jimmy" is interested in model trains. He remember's Grandpa's set, read a few books, and he is looking to get started.

If Jimmy is younger (13-16), he needs parental support and money. Parental support is a big one. Jimmy likely may not be content with an EZ track oval on the floor for long, and just displaying stuff on a shelf can get old just as quickly. Jimmy needs permission from parents to get the space to construct any sort of layout (being a module or 4x8). Even if Jimmy's parents have the necessary tools to construct a layout (and not every home has this equipment), he'll still need them to either show him how to use it, or build it themselves if they don't trust little Jimmy with power tools. Its entirely possible Jimmy's parents will say "No, you're not building a model railroad", and then thats the end of the line right there.

Jimmy then needs to contend with the money issue. the basic wood and track required for even a 4x8 can get very expensive VERY quickly, before its even built. Does Jimmy get an allowance? Is he working (not many kids under 16 appear to be able to get jobs, at least in my expirience)? If not, he's going to have convince his parents to give him some (i don't know how many parents pay for their childs every whim), or use up some reserve money perhaps from christmas or his birthday. Lets not forget there may be other things on Jimmy's plate. Suppose his girlfriend Jenny wants to go out (and her birthday is coming), or there is some sort of activity Jimmy wants to participate in? Jimmy already only gets a little bit of money, and if he uses it all on model trains, there won't be anything left for anything else.

I don't think its really fair to accuse Jimmy of a short attention span and desiring of instant gratification when limited time and money don't necessarily make it easy for a kid to walk into a hobby shop every month and pick something up. A young person also has little expirence, and not the benefit of our 20:20 hindsight.

Even when Jimmy gets older and graduates highschool, he is looking at car payments, insurance, college, and a job. He may be making more than he did, but he is paying more than he was before. College coursework is more intense than it was in highschool, and then he needs to work between in order to pay the bills. Jimmy is going to be tired after the day is done, and he still has to study for some midterm and write a report. Even if he has managed to move out, most people's inital homes and apartments are small. If he is in college dorm, there may be no space for Jimmy's hobby. Jimmy knows this isn't a permanent place, so why build something he can't take with him? Perhaps he is still with Jenny, who now likes to go out every week. Again, its becoming very unrealistic to maintain the hobby. There is to much going on, and not enough time, and still not enough money.

Jimmy may well be able to pull off buying some nice locomotive every once in a while without his girlfriend asking him "why aren't you spending that on a date with me?", but thats going to be a rare moment.

I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons that I cannot even think of. I know i'm in the latter situation, There is no time or money for anything anymore, its all school and work. I'm not complaining, I love my major and I enjoy where I work, but there is often no money left for the hobby budget, and not a whole lot of free time I can devote to the trains. While I don't expect to have projects done instantly, there are many projects i've started a year ago that have made little progress, simply because I just could not get to it.


Ultimately, when Jimmy is growing older and more stable, with a larger apartment or a home, and a steady job someplace with a higher income. He has more freedom in his environment, and can now safely invest the money into a model railroad, and likely can set aside the time to do it.

40 y/o's are old in terms of developing an interest in a hobby, and most people go into hobbies that associate with interests they had as young people. Maybe we need another poll asking at what age we started building models of any sort. I imagine we will find that we started as kids or perhaps high schoolers, and kept on building stuff until we got into MRR.

By the time most people reach forty they have the obligatory large mortgage, the mandatory two cars and 2.5 kids, credit card debts, medical and other insurance and numerous obligations to family, and haven't got the disposable space and income associated with this hobby. That comes for most of us when we become empty nesters and/retired, with time, space and money on our hands.

The recent increase in ISL's is telling, because those are small and inexpensive layouts, not layouts that bring in large profits to the LHS, without which the LHS's begin to go the way of the mom-and-pop grocery stores, first consolidating into fewer and larger markets, and finally succumbing to the big box stores that decide where they will go to make the most money, rather than where they might be most needed. None of this is beneficial to the future of the hobby.

For a stark, concrete lesson in what is happening to this hobby, go back to the model railroading magazines of the 60's, 70's and even the 80's and look at the proliferation of ads from a plethora of manufacturers and suppliers, most all of whom no longer exist. We don't even make trains in America anymore, except possibly Lionel.

I'm currently stocking up on rolling stock and locos and structures on the assumption that I will need my own resources to continue, and perhaps eventually tear down and rebuild something else based solely on what I have already. I can always make trees and ground cover, and even scratch build structures and bridges, but I cannot count on a steady source of supply for anything. Even stuff that was on the shelves a few short years ago is no gone for good, never to return, and the rolling stock bought a few years ago has doubled in price in the meantime without gaining that much in quality. At the risk of sounding patronizing, "ready-to-roll" means just that; this stuff should not need to be checked and gauged and tested by us to see if it is assembled properly, when it is supposed to come from the factory that way in the first place.

In order for this hobby to survive and prosper, it MUST become attractive to young people, and by that I mean kids, who grow up with model trains and ISL's and go one to bigger and bigger layouts until they, too, can start their final and ultimate retirement layout. And frankly, I think the hobby can use a constant supply of fresh, new ideas as part of that process.
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#25
I'm 39. My honest reason for starting this topic was my true wondering of the what the availability of models and locos will be when I do hit that age where I will have time and space to build a grand layout. You can even ask my wife. As time rolls on and we continue to live in a space where I cannot build a large layout, one of my biggest fears in life is that I will die before I ever get to build or even start to build a bigger layout. Part of that fear is the health of the hobby when I get to a point where I will really need it.
"You did NOT cut a hole in the wall for the train, did you?" - the wife
The Waynesburg Southern
Blue Mountain Aerial Mapping
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#26
Different strokes for different folks. One size won't fit all. My grandkids like trains right now. I don't know if that like will continue into adulthood. My brother in law built a layout on a 4x8 board for my nephew thinking he would like model railroading. The nephew was never interested and found it boring. He would rather race rc cars. When I first move to this house I bought a bunch of trains from my neighbor across the street, most of it Athearn. He had built a layout thinking his boys would like model railroading, but they were into surfing instead. Membership in the NMRA has been flat as long as I can remember. If I remember correctly when I first started model railroading in the 1980's, the membership level of the NMRA was somewhere between 30,000 to 35,000. The membership is still about the same. I think the strength of a hobby can be gauged to some extent by the number of magazines on the subject at your local Barnes & Noble magazine rack. At my local Barnes & Noble they will have Model Railroader and Trains monthly plus they will carry the various special annual issues that Kalmbach comes out with like Great Model Railroads, etc. They carry at least a half dozen general interest automotive titles, another half dozen hot rodding titles, at least 4 magazine titles focused on Chevrolet, just as many focused on Mustang, 4-6 that feature Corvettes only. I could go on. Model railroading is and always has been a minority hobby, and I just don't see a lot of change coming down the pike in terms of interest level. If you figure that there are probably 3-4 people interested in model railroading for each NMRA member, that would put total interest in model railroading at @ 100k-150k, or the equivalent of one small city, and I don't see evidence of the numbers changing much either way.
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#27
Usually, when you visit our mega-bookstores -- our Chapters/Indigo chain -- there are at least 2 to 3 North American model railroading magazines and 2-3 on real-life trains. There are also (depending on the store) usually 2-3 British model railway magazines as well as 3-4 on British full-scale historic steam trains and/or on the contemporary railway scene. I know that there are even more magazines out there, so it looks pretty healthy to me.

I'm 52 and I also hope to get into the hobby a lot more when I retire. We currently have a small house in Toronto so I only have small/micro layouts. One day, I hope we'll live in another city and have a much larger house (where real estate is much more affordable). Right now, lack of space, time and money prevents me from getting any deeper into the hobby ... and it's been this way since I got back into the hobby about 8 years ago.
Rob
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.robertrobotham.ca/">http://www.robertrobotham.ca/</a><!-- m -->
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#28
What I'm observing out there is a lot of mrrers getting in to spin off areas ........lots of people building models rather than model RAILROADS . There is still a connecting theme , to be sure , but I just see a lot of change there . Maybe it was inevitable .

Terry
To err is human, to blame it on somebody else shows management potential.
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#29
teejay Wrote:What I'm observing out there is a lot of mrrers getting in to spin off areas ........lots of people building models rather than model RAILROADS . There is still a connecting theme , to be sure , but I just see a lot of change there . Maybe it was inevitable .

Terry

I've noticed that, too. Many people just build show models for the MRR shows, while others build what amount to animated dioramas. It's still "modeling, but it isn't "model railroading".
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#30
Yeah , lets face facts , there are a lot of hobby/imterest choices out there for kids . I'm old enough to remember the slot car craze in the mid to late 60's ( a lot of younger Forum guys are going " what the hell is a slot car ? Goldth ) ....and yes it bit me for a while and took me away from trains for about 2 years . But that faded and models and mrr's remained my interest .....I still have about 60 UNBUILT AMT type kits of 1/25 th variety .....


Terry
To err is human, to blame it on somebody else shows management potential.
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