Considering Switch to DCC

[jwb]

After a lifetime of straight DC operation and a 20-year large layout with DC cab control, I'm looking seriously at converting to DCC. There are two big reasons: my walkaround DC system is wearing out, especially the phone jacks for the walkarounds, one of the handhelds has given up the ghost, and the system hasn't been manufactured for many years. Also, I want to get the full use of sound (recognizing it can drive people up the wall as well), and I like the constant lighting. I'm also intrigued by what Reinhard is able to do with high-end decoders to get good performance out of low-cost Bachmann locos.

So here are my givens and druthers: medium-large layout, 288 locos (a lifetime of collecting) in the computer but maybe 25 on the layout. Just me operating 99 percent of the time, maximum ever probably 3 or 4 operators. Want to use sound at least sometimes, at least as far as trying it out. Want to have high-end decoders with momentum effects on at least some locos. Probably won't use accessory decoders. Want to use wireless -- don't want to get into replacing the phone jacks, etc, either with a different system or replacement jacks.

Reviewing the starter-set discussions on the web, I'm looking at either a Digitrax Zephyr or a Lenz Set-90. Does anyone have comments or suggestions? What are good high-end decoders with momentum effects?

[teejay]

I bought the Digitrax Empire Builder in 2003 . It is the second tier system and I had ( and still have ) 12 locos . I was under the impression the Zephyr was for a smaller system . I haven't used the full potential of the system because I don't do op sessions ...I run my trains myself .

Really , if I had to do it again , I would look at NCE . A friend has that system and I like the hand held control better than Digitrax and it seems like a simpler system that has a ton of features . My buddy runs LOK Sound on his NCE and it is quite impressive . I haven't gone sound as of yet .
I know nothing of the Lenz equipment .

T

[Puddlejumper]

I have a Zephyr and like it. I have 30+ locos, but only 6 or so that are DCC. I plan on converting the whole fleet. The Zephyr is expandable if I ever need more amperage or want multiple operators, but I don't see it happening. I plan on getting a couple wireless throttles, and then I think my layout will be all set.

Dave

[Charlie B]

I have the Prodigy Advance squared, and the wireless dongle that allows me to have the wireless hand helds (I have 2 ) as well as the computer wireless which has 2 throttles too. It will not work with JMRI but I don't find that a drawback. I also have 3 wired throttles with jacks around the room. They use a cat5 cable and jacks. I can run as many as 10 sound equipped engines without a booster and I have sidings that I store my locomotives but the sidings have a switch to kill the power. I don't have any trouble programing, and the nice part about the MRC wireless is you can go directly to a cv while the locomotive is running and adjust it on the fly. I have used the NCE power cab but I did not like it.
Charlie b

[torikoos]

For a good system, try the Lenz 100, I would skip the 90, that throttle is a pain to use with programming a decoder. You can always add that throttle later for operating the layout, if you prefer it's round knob.
However, Lenz is not that well 'established' in the US. Digitrax and NCE are the dominant brands in the US, followed by MRC (would not touch that at all though!!!, their analog gear used to be great, but their digital stuff is not of the same robustness or quality, and I've even heard of some incompatibility issues, although they're not alone in that. If I had to choose, I'd have a good look at NCE, nice flexible throttles and an expandable system. Outside of the US, (europe like myself), the choice is easy, Lenz, IMHO.

Good decoders (non sound) can be had from both NCE and TCS, as well as Digitrax, all have momentum build in, the digitrax being the more flexible to program, but TCS are very good!
Also ESU (Lokpilot range) makes very, very good loco decoders (probably the best low speed control around) , as does Lenz, but these are sometimes a bit more expensive.

Then of course there are the sound decoders: A good decoder with good sound are the Soundtraxx Tsunami decoders. These however are sometimes very tricky to set up, especially where it concerns low speed / switching performance (the weak point of many decoders), and you'll be tweaking a long time to get it right, but plenty good for road engines , with many build in sounds (horn types etc).
More flexible are the QSI Quantum Titan , excellent sounds, very decent low speed performance (but many, many parameters to set up in different speed ranges), but the drawback is that you need a dedicated programmers to change some of the functions or sounds. However, your dealer should be able to set it up such that it is to your spec (which functions you'd need, for example they come with cab light on certain outputs by default, but I'd like that output to be used for a roof beacon, that sort of thing).

ESU LokSound have the same motor control as their lokpilot (and thus are very good in that regards), and can also be custom loaded with sound, but like QSI, you'd need a programmer for that, or have your dealer do that for you. Function outputs remain flexible I believe, and there are sufficient sounds available to cater for most loco types, although some sound sets are now a bit out of date and don't sound as good as they could do. However newer sound sets are gradually being added and these are often very good.


There, enough food for thought I guess , hope it's useful.

Koos

PS: if you go digital, then as soon as you can afford it, expand your system with a DCC USB interface, so you can connect your system to the computer. Not for control (unless you wanted that) but to be able to use the (free) JMRI Decoder pro software, it takes a little time to get used to, but it makes setting up a decoder, speed curves, function outputs etc etc a lot , lot easier, and no need to remember all the CV numbers etc.. It will be the best enhancement you can give to any DCC system. Pretty much all manufacturers have such an interface in their product range. What's more, provided your computer is also connected to a wireless hub (Doesn't need to be connected to the internet for this purpose) you can also use a smart phone like an iPhone, or an iPod as your wireless throttle. With DCC, a whole new world of control and operations will open up to you, and while the initial investment might be higher, converting your layout and fleet cost time , and getting comfortable with all this digital speak , you will soon appreciate its merits over analog, and will likely not want to go back, ever.

[jwb]

OK, I'm looking at the NCE 524025 Power Cab as a possible starter set now. It's hard to get a good feel for what the particular products are off the web (and I don't have friends that I can visit to see products in the flesh). I get the impression from illustrations that the Digitrax Zephyr is basically set up like an old-fashioned centralized power pack, and control is done from the single console. Walkaround in any form is an add-on. The NCE 524025 starts out with a walkaround-style handheld, which at least some guys seem to like. Is this correct? Does anyone have experience with the NCE 524025?

I've already downloaded JMRI and use it for the freight car routing portion. A USB interface will be very high on my list. I assume NCE has one?

[teejay]

I wish I could put you in touch with my buddy about NCE but he doesn't have a computer ( spends all his time building models and running trains ) .....can't believe there is nobody around L.A. to help you ......clubs maybe ? It would be best to get hands on feel of some sort ....hobby shops have in-house layout ???? I know when Joe handed me the NCE throttle from the basic system ( whatever it is ) I immediately liked the thumb wheel for adjusting speed rather than turning the knob on my Digitrax . It was a very small thing but I liked it because you didn't have to hold the throttle with one hand and adjust speed with the other hand .. He was doing lash-ups very easily with it too . Unfortunately I don't know any more .

T

[torikoos]

Well, I'd ask yourself how you've been operating your current/previous layouts , and do you like it that way or would you prefer a different method?

A walk around has several advantages, you can 'walk' along with your train, and throw hand operated turnouts, uncouple cars, or just have a look. Of course if you currently have a centralised control panel, you'd end up walking back and forth to throw a turnout etc, but if you eventually equip your turnouts with accessory decoders, you can do so from the throttle too.

The NCE Powercab is a good starter system, and offers a degree of walk around, however the Powercab must be connected at all times, otherwise the trains will stop, as the Powercab handheld IS the DCC commandstation. However NCE does offer fairly cheap additional throttles and they can be plugged / unplugged to your liking. You would need to install a couple additional connection panels along the fascia but they aren't that expensive either. Yes NCE also has a USB interface.

If you expand your system into a larger one in the future, the power cab throttle isn't completely wasted, it can still function as any other throttle at that stage. Not a bad way of doing things I feel.

The thumb wheel certainly makes 'one handed' operation possible, and the display on the NCE powercab is good. It can display a lot of information and doesn't rely on just numbers and abbreviations. It is certainly a serious option to consider.
To further help you choose, I'd recommend reading the articles in Model Railroad Hobbyist magazine (free downloadable), where some systems were introduced and compared. (look at the september 2012 issue)

Koos

[Steamtrains]

OK, I'm looking at the NCE 524025 Power Cab as a possible starter set now. It's hard to get a good feel for what the particular products are off the web (and I don't have friends that I can visit to see products in the flesh). I get the impression from illustrations that the Digitrax Zephyr is basically set up like an old-fashioned centralized power pack, and control is done from the single console. Walkaround in any form is an add-on. The NCE 524025 starts out with a walkaround-style handheld, which at least some guys seem to like. Is this correct? Does anyone have experience with the NCE 524025?

I've already downloaded JMRI and use it for the freight car routing portion. A USB interface will be very high on my list. I assume NCE has one?

I tried using JMRI for that very purpose, but couldn't get a "handle" on it. How does it work..?? The program has very limited instructions...

[Green_Elite_Cab]

I also strongly reccomend the NCE products. At entry level, you get far more features in that cab than you do any other similarly priced product. Ever since joining my local club, I've regretted not spending the extra $20 on a Power cab instead of the Prodigy Express I currently own.

Programming is incredibly easy, as the NCE cabs have readback features. They also walk you through the "basic" decoder programming like Addresses, speed tables, power settings, etc. Many other entry level systems require you to learn these CVs by heart and know how to do the "math" required to get the settings you want.

Unlike many other entry level DCC systems, the NCE can handle accessory decoders, such as those on switch machines and other devices not connected to the track. This allows you to throw switches from your throttle, and if you use the macro setting, you can actually program multiples switches to work simultaneously, great for interlockings.

Most competing systems would need an "upgrade" to the next level in order to do some of these things. It is annoying to find that the cab needs to be plugged in though. My Prodigy express even has a small power station that keeps the trains running when I unplug. I was under the impression that most trains just followed their last instructions when you unplugged the cab from the tracks. After all, track power should still be theoretically going to the track, since its still connect to the wall plug.


I Like the way my MRC Prodigy express feels in my hands, but it is so hampered by its lack of ability to do anything, that I really only tolerate it because I don't consist much on my home layout, and i know how to program manually.

I'm strongly starting to suspect there is actually something wrong with this (individual) system, but i can't seem to prove it.

[torikoos]

It is annoying to find that the cab needs to be plugged in though. My Prodigy express even has a small power station that keeps the trains running when I unplug. I was under the impression that most trains just followed their last instructions when you unplugged the cab from the tracks. After all, track power should still be theoretically going to the track, since its still connect to the wall plug.
.

That is because the NCE Powercab (unlike their ProCab) has the DCC commandstation build into the throttle, including it's power supplies, so by unplugging it, you disconnect the commandstation from the rails (and thus remove trackpower). Also remember that the last instruction (per address) you give , is being re-transmitted all the time by the DCC command station, basically telling the engine to keep running at speed step 15 over and over, until there's a change . If you remove this signal, the loco no longer knows what to do, and all stops...

(JMRI is a great tool to watch this communication, you'll see a constant stream of activity in the log windows )

Koos

[jwb]

OK, I'm looking at the NCE 524025 Power Cab as a possible starter set now. It's hard to get a good feel for what the particular products are off the web (and I don't have friends that I can visit to see products in the flesh). I get the impression from illustrations that the Digitrax Zephyr is basically set up like an old-fashioned centralized power pack, and control is done from the single console. Walkaround in any form is an add-on. The NCE 524025 starts out with a walkaround-style handheld, which at least some guys seem to like. Is this correct? Does anyone have experience with the NCE 524025?

I've already downloaded JMRI and use it for the freight car routing portion. A USB interface will be very high on my list. I assume NCE has one?

I tried using JMRI for that very purpose, but couldn't get a "handle" on it. How does it work..?? The program has very limited instructions...

All the software based switchlist generators are pretty similar. I've used several, so didn't have much of a learning curve with JMRI. (It looks to me as if the JMRI people took all the best features from each.) To get them to work, you need (1) a list of cars (locos are optional for starters); (2) a list of industries and yards; (3) a list of trains; (4) a list of stations and routes, which contain the industries and yards you've created. You then assign each car to an initial location and run a train to pick up and set out the cars. The industries naturally have to be set up to use the car types you've defined. That's the basic thing. You're naturally best off starting with a small number of cars and industries, trains, routes and stations, and getting something to work on that basis. Once you get it, you can easily expand.

You can ask more questions here, or someone earlier had a thread on JMRI car routing, or you can certainly PM me if you want more advice!

[Steamtrains]

Thanks JWB....I'll look into this a little closer this weekend when (hopefully) I can dedicate some time to just this....
I'll let you know how it goes, and what pitfalls I fell into....

[jwb]

So my NCE Power Cab arrived yesterday, and I plan to start working with it today. My first step will be to set it up and then try it with locos I already have with DCC options, like the Atlas GP38 with switchable decoder.

However, the next step I'm considering will be decoders available with the NMRA plug. The next step after that would be any available drop-in non-sound PC board decoders for old yellow box style Atlas locos. I think MRC used to do these, but it doesn't look like they do drop-in PC board decoders without sound any more.

Does anyone know of non-sound PC board DCC decoder replacements for yellow-box Atlas HO locos?

Does anyone have recommendations for non-sound NMRA plug compatible decoders? Naturally, I want to avoid any that buzz.

[teejay]

Can't help you with the decoders , but congrats on obtaining your new system . I think , once you get situated , you will be very pleased with DCC.

T