Problem with NCE decoder
#1
Hi Guys, normally I'm pretty comfortable with DCC decoders (although I am far from expert), but this one got me stumped...

I installed a NCE N14IP in my new HO Atlas GP38-2 , but I cannot get it to behave. Now, sometimes it might be the DCC system that is somewhat incompatible with decoders (or the other way around), so I will mention that I am trying to program this with a Lenz set 100 DCC system, using the programming track on my system.

I have previously used this decoder in another loco, so I thought I'd quickly plug it into this unit (which is very easy to do, pull off the dynamic brake blister, swap the dummy board for the decoder, and put the blister back on, done, no need for the complete opening up of the loco, great design), give it a new address and off we go... WRONG!

After install I called up the loco's address and it communicated address 4352 to me. This is odd, as this decoder previously had address 2537.... Anyway, I decided to start with a clean slate and reset the decoder, the loco makes it's usual string of buzzes and short yerky movements, power cycles and after that de loco rerturns address 0003 to me, which is default and thus okay.
I tried running the loco under that number first, but nothing happens, no lights no movement.
Returning to the programming track, I read out the address again, I get various results, no address (just lines), 0003 and again 4352 , so I did another reset, followed by programming the address I wanted (4404) and read out the decoder, and after a few attempts I get 4404 returned.
Again, putting it on the layout , nothing happens at all, at one instant de headlight is on continually, but doesn't respond and no movement at all.
I also have to mention that on the programming track, the loco responds in different ways, some cases a few short yerks and buzzes , which are sometimes followed by the loco shooting forward by a few inches, and this usually is resulting in an unsuccesful programming attempt, and sometimes the yerks/buzzes continue a bit longer, and usually seem to return a succesful CV change etc..

I think three things could be the case:

For some reason, the output of the programming track output of my lenz system isn't powerful enough to program this decoder and would need a booster. I think this is unlikely as the decoder is a simple non sound decoder (and actually an N scale decoder, but has powerful motor outputs, so enough to drive this HO loco, it previously worked fine in a SW1500 ).
The other option is that the decoder is duff for some reason, I think this might be possible
Last option is that I need to program this decoder in another way, possibly using 'paged' mode, or direct bit.

So now come the questions:
Has anyone seen this sort of behaviour before, and if so was it a similar combination of an NCE decoder with a Lenz DCC system?
Has this got another root cause, and could it be one of the 3 reasons I mentioned, or is it something different?

Most importantly, does anyone have a solution to this ?

Yes the wheels and all contacts are clean, and so is the programming track. Other locos work fine (I did try another loco to see if I was doing something wrong, but worked fine)

Thanks very much,

Koos

Below the easy access and install into this loco, I really like the way Atlas designed this.

[Image: 8243429227_730ee3217a_z.jpg]
Decoder install atlas gp38-2 by K2K Koos, on Flickr
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#2
You describe a not consistent effect. Two tests might help to isolate the failung unit:
a. Do you have the engine where the decoder did reside in before still at hand? Just put the decoder back and see what happens.
b. Put any other known to work decoder in the GP38
I suspect two possibilities:
1. The decoder got a hit by static shock while handling
2. The GP38 has a highly intermittent problem on the PCB (not very likely)
Reinhard
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#3
Hi Reinhard,

Your remark of static shock might just provide the answer actually. It has been in a plastic bag and I had it with me in hand luggage travelling by airplane. It was X rayed etc.
I have noticed that recently every time I travel, go through the airport security , and I try to pick up my laptop and put back in the bag , I get a small static discharge when I try to pick it up, this might have happened to the decoder too.
( I work away on weekdays and my current module is residing in the flat I rent , so I brought the decoder along to fit it to the loco I have there).

Do you have any suggestions on how to 'discharge this decoder'? Should take it out and 'short out' the connector with some aluminium/kitchen foil, or a good earthed point (a water pipe or gas line?) in the house?
It would be worth a try?

Koos
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#4
Hi Koos,
there is no way to "discharge" in the sense of repair the decoder (if that is the cause). A single transistor in the integrated circuit is build by only a few layers of atoms. A static charge can run a very short spike of current and destroy just some atoms (destroy means simply add or remove some electrons and flip that atom N to P ion or vise versa.
However you can/should wrap them in aluminium/kitchen foil and put the 8-pin connector also in the foil to connect all 8 pins when traveling the next time. When unpacking you should touch the table, the engine, the solder iron, larger tools and the foil first. Afterwards unpack the decoder and all 8 pins of the connector and have the same electric charge as it's environment.
Reinhard
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#5
Hmm yes, good point, I will do that next time, might be that this particular one has died.... oh well, gotta wait a few weeks until I can afford a new one, expensive month with christmas etc. :-)

Koos
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#6
Koos, Can you do the reset on the main? I am not familar with your system but with the MRC system I use find it works better to program on the main track where the power is higher. Even doing this it sometimes takes a couiple times to get a clean reset.

Charlie
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#7
Charlie B Wrote:Koos, Can you do the reset on the main? I am not familar with your system but with the MRC system I use find it works better to program on the main track where the power is higher. Even doing this it sometimes takes a couiple times to get a clean reset.

Charlie

Word of warning....Programming on the main will program ALL your locos that are on the main. Curse
Make sure you take them off the tracks, or park them on sections that can be switched OFF.
Gus (LC&P).
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#8
Steamtrains Wrote:
Charlie B Wrote:Koos, Can you do the reset on the main? I am not familar with your system but with the MRC system I use find it works better to program on the main track where the power is higher. Even doing this it sometimes takes a couiple times to get a clean reset.

Charlie

Word of warning....Programming on the main will program ALL your locos that are on the main. Curse
Make sure you take them off the tracks, or park them on sections that can be switched OFF.
Programing on the main with the MRC in program mode ONLY programs the addressed locomotive. I've done it hundreds of times.
If using another system and you are having a problem with that one locomotive it makes good sense to only have that locomotive on the track.
Charlie
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#9
Hi 'Steamtrains' / Gus , I think you are a little confused there. If indeed you have no separation between programming track and the rest of layout, then programming in a 'programming track mode' , or what ever your system calls it, will program all locos. Programming on the Main (POM) will usually only program the addressed loco with most systems. (there might be exceptions) . Also using software like JMRI Decoder pro, it is very easy to accidentally send 'programming track' commands over the main, so you have to set it up properly, otherwise all locos will be affected.

Koos
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#10
NCE will replace any defective decoder for most of the times for free. Heres a link to their support page:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.ncedcc.com/customer-care.html">http://www.ncedcc.com/customer-care.html</a><!-- m -->

from that page:
It is always worth a call to the Warranty Center before you send a product back to us. Many times we can talk you through the problem and straighten it out without the need to send a product to us.

Our phone lines are open from 9AM to 4PM Eastern time.
Phone - 585-265-0230
Fax - 585-265-0234
Email - <!-- e --><a href="mailtoConfusedupport@ncecorporation.com">support@ncecorporation.com</a><!-- e -->

Also they will replace other manufacturers decoders for $10 plus $2 shipping:

Special Offer
Send in any manufacturer's HO or N Scale damaged decoder with $10.00 plus $2.00S&H and we will replace the decoder with one of NCE's finest replacements! Home Support, assistance, and comradery are available at the following email groups:

NCE DCC Group: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe.cgi/nce-dcc">http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe.cgi/nce-dcc</a><!-- m -->
Allan Gartner's Wiring for DCC: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.WiringForDCC.com">http://www.WiringForDCC.com</a><!-- m -->
Wiring for DCC Group: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WiringForDCC">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WiringForDCC</a><!-- m -->
Marcus Ammann's DCC for Beginners: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/nswmn2">http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/nswmn2</a><!-- m -->

Hope this helps you.
TB 8-)
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#11
The various random outputs of your programming results, and noting that the engine doesn't always buzz / jerk when you attempt to program is telling me you have a contact issue someplace. Something that is notorious on Atlas engines is the contact strip the axle ends run in. Oils tend to leach out to that location and build up in the journal making an excellent insulator ! Pop off the bottom cover of the trucks, remove the side frames and wheel sets. Wipe the axle ends with a clean rag - you'll be surprised what comes off. Then use some round toothpicks to ream out the bronze journal bushings. Make sure they are clean.

If you have your engine tore down to do this step, it's also a good idea to solder the truck wires to that bronze strip as well. The same oils that leach out to the journals will also create an insulation between the wire as well. Those black plastic clips are a poor excuse for a good electrical connection.


Mark.
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#12
Thanks Mark , I will check this out, it is a brand new loco, but sometimes the engines do get over lubricated in the factory.

Thanks for the suggestion,

Koos
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