Freelance 2014-2

[Rscott417]

I think it would make sense as a storage lot. The tractor trailer parking looks good but looks nearly impossible to get those long trailers in and out of that lot from a narrow street. If you kept it scrap yard related you could store dumpsters, 20 foot container for other parts storage and broken/ neglected equipment, I worked at a garbage transfer station and there's plenty of trucks and other loaders rusting away in lots like that. The place I worked at even had an old 50s mack fire truck rusted out with flat tires because my boss thought he was going to refurbish it, the storage possibilities are endless.

[jwb]

I think there's a tendency to look at Southern California and the LAJ as somehow a "perfect prototype" for the shoebox ISL. (I notice Lance Mindheim mentioned recently on his blog that he was thinking about doing an LAJ layout, which maybe says something.) I think it's a great deal else. First, the LAJ, up to 1960, connected with four railroads, the Santa Fe, UP, SP, and Pacific Electric. There was, and partly continues to be, some use of each other's tracks. Right there you have justification for unique operation of five roads on one layout. And even when they didn't directly share trackage, they ran within a few blocks of each other or crossed each other. Second, there was a lot of transfer operation. Up to the mid 1980s, SP's Taylor Yard was part of the mix, with transfers to and from it by the other railroads and the SP. Third, you have the East Bank line, owned by UP but with SP and PE trackage rights, and transfers on that line. Fourth, there were several industrial districts closer to downtown served by all three Class Is, some of which are discussed by Bob Smaus, Keith Jordan, and Bruce Petty on their sites. Fifth, you have more remote industrial districts on all the Class Is and PE, Sixth, you have smaller yards all over the area, Santa Fe's First Street and Malabar, SP's River Station, Aurant, and J Yards, PE's very small Culver City yard, UP's Industry yard, etc. Seventh, you have a lot of trackage rights situations elsewhere in the area, SP on UP at Bartolo, UP on Santa Fe from Riverside to Daggett, etc. You also have scenic opportunities that you're ruling out. On all but the foggiest days, you see the mountains from Vernon. Check out Bruce Petty's discussion of backgrounds at <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://lariverrailroads.com/mountains.html">http://lariverrailroads.com/mountains.html</a><!-- m --> . Even if you don't want to paint a permanent backdrop, you can have removable panels on hardboard or foamcore that would add a lot.

Naturally, this is just one small part of the country. You would have very similar situations in Chicago, St Louis, and many other places. It seems to me that you're focusing on just one aspect of railroading, on one hand, and as far as I can see, not necessarily making full use of the space you have on the other -- you actually have more space and more opportunities than a simple ISL provides. My inclination would be to pull back the focus and add other types of operation and use the opportunity to model more than one railroad at the same time, rather than deciding every few weeks that it's a whole different place. Even if you decide this isn't LA anymore, it's East St Louis, you have that extra dimension in concept working for you.

I just think you could make a lot fuller use of the concept and resources you have.

[Brakie]

I think it would make sense as a storage lot. The tractor trailer parking looks good but looks nearly impossible to get those long trailers in and out of that lot from a narrow street. If you kept it scrap yard related you could store dumpsters, 20 foot container for other parts storage and broken/ neglected equipment, I worked at a garbage transfer station and there's plenty of trucks and other loaders rusting away in lots like that. The place I worked at even had an old 50s mack fire truck rusted out with flat tires because my boss thought he was going to refurbish it, the storage possibilities are endless.

I've seen some tight quarters that truckers had to back a 53 footer in to,one was Dock 4 at Swan Hose here in Bucyrus.If you didn't get the angle right the first time then the driver had to see saw or back out and get the correct angle which was roughlya mean 80 degree thanks to a fence and carbon black silos..

My thoughts would be to remove the fence and make a trailer drop lot.

[jwb]

Here's part of a map from the late 1940s of what I think is the most interesting part of the LAJ:

   

Note that the upper area shows an interchange with UP, SP, and Santa Fe. I don't know exactly how transfers worked at that time, but even now, trains with power from both UP and BNSF run into A Yard from this area. But note that the UP San Pedro Sub crosses the LAJ right here, and the Santa Fe/BNSF Harbor Sub and Malabar Yard are a few blocks away. Depending on era, you get the ability to run BNSF and UP transfers into a version of A Yard (adding SP and Santa Fe for earlier eras). You also get the ability to treat an industrial area as something served by ATSF/BNSF and UP as well as LAJ. The dotted line in the upper left is still joint track with UP. The trackage going east-west along Vernon Ave to get there has parallel UP-LAJ trackage through an alley.

[faraway]

... not necessarily making full use of the space you have on the other -- you actually have more space and more opportunities than a simple ISL provides. My inclination would be to pull back the focus and add other types of operation and use the opportunity to model more than one railroad at the same time,...
I just think you could make a lot fuller use of the concept and resources you have.

I have thought about that from the very beginning and had much more "action" on my first layouts. But after some time I discovered
a. it looks like a Mickey Mouse world with ridiculous compression
b. it does not support contemporary (2005+) equipment
That is the reason why I concentrate on a small ISL.

Anyhow I would be glad if you have a suggestion how to make better prototypical use of 13' x 2' within the following constrains
1- must be contemporary (year 2005+)
2- track length must permit regular switching with two engines e.g. Gensets
3- switches must be Atlas #6 or better
4- tracks must run in 90° curves to the foreground at both ends (run around the room)
5- street width must support contemporary trucks
6- not freelance but based on a prototype I can explore via Google street view (lots of rural areas are poor covered by street view)
7- must be urban.
8- a four track staging yard supports max train length of 5 1/2'. No coupling at the staging yard.
What do you propose?

[jwb]

I would look at the general area surrounding Vernon as a prototype, including as far up as the Amtrak 8th St Yard, the Violet Alley area and City Fibers, LAJ A Yard, the trackage on the UP Harbor Sub leading from the Weeds area down along Downey Road, and the stub of the BNSF Harbor Sub. This is conceptual, there isn't a whole lot you can do to try to duplicate the trackage.

My overall approach wouldn't be too different from what you have now -- there aren't too many magic options for the track plan, but it seems to me that you can do a lot with structures and concept. I would make a couple of peripheral changes to your track plan:

   

The biggest change I would make would be to add at least two crossings, because there are lots of crossings in the area. I'm not sure exactly how the table works at the door to your office, but I would try to work a crossing into an arrangement like the one on the left of the drawing. This would be in effect the crossing at Charter St and Downey Rd of the LAJ and UP San Pedro Sub. If you flip my drawing, it will be even closer to the prototype arrangement. Note that both LAJ (post 2005 with BNSF equipment) and UP are in close proximity or on the same trackage here and westward along Vernon Ave. Here's a photo of the area from gound level:

   

As long as we're on crossings, at the top of the plan I would look to add at least one street trackage crossing like the many in the area:

   

   

The more street trackage you have, the more it can do double duty with trucks, and the more interesting trackage you can put in a street, so much the better.

Now we can turn to the question of the stub tracks past the near-90 degree crossing on the left. I would make one of the stubs running into the wall a version of the City Fibers spur off J Yard (the last remnant of Violet Alley).

   

I would put a City Fibers type shed entry right on the short wall, either the left or the right.

I've maxed out on the photos I can upload in one post, will continue in another.

[jwb]

Another change I would make is simply conceptual. The reality of the LAJ and other rail activity in the area is that there are lots of transfers. It's also worth pointing out that BNSF's LACBAR-BARLAC trains run right onto the LAJ, and the power often seems to go from C Yard to A Yard to the UP connection west of A Yard. By the same token, the 204 Job that runs between Commerce and Malabar also runs onto the LAJ. UP transfers run directly onto A Yard, too. So I would be looking at each staging track as, conceptually, a different transfer operation, and I'd be sure the power I used reflected that. While you might want to concentrate on gensets, small GPs, etc, there's no question that UP runs SD60Ms on heavier transfers in the area, and BNSF runs 4 or more big GEs on the LACBAR-BARLAC. The big point is that a transfer is a separate kind of train, it comes out of staging, drops one cut, picks up another, and goes back into staging. Different locos, maybe different railroad.

I also wonder what kind of scenic treatment, or even potential industrial spurs, you can do in the other corners of the room. It might be worth considering adding scenery to conceal your computer stand. Not far north of Vernon is the Redondo Flyover (a post-2000 feature). This could be a pure scenery feature that would certainly add atmosphere:

   

I've added a dotted line on the lower right as just a query about whether it's possible to fit another industry in there. Even an industry on a spur that leads to something else isn't a total impssibility:

   

One trick I've investigated is having tracks that are dual use. You could put an industry like this right on one of your main line curves, treat it as an Industry track in one session and spot a car there; treat it as a main line track in another session and run the transfer over it.

In addition to the possibility of larger power running in on transfers, I would not rule out the possible extra scope of some dealing wth Amtrak. Again, its loco facility and 8th St Yard are only about a mile away, and there are interesting operations there other than just intercity trains and Surfliners:

   

I found PHL 20 working Amtrak 8th St one day, no explanation. Charles Freericks says the PHL has "dock jobs", where a PHL loco and crew are simply sent to work for UP or BNSF. Whether this is related to that, I don't know, but it's an indication of the actual scope you find in this small area.

Amtrak has its own switch jobs, either with a genset or with P32BHWs:

   

There's no reason to completely rule out an Amtrak job moving a private car through your area.

[faraway]

John, thanks for taking the time.

...This is conceptual, there isn't a whole lot you can do to try to duplicate the trackage.

That is my first key problems with the Vernon area. It looks so full of tracks but when ever I tried to boil it down to make my track plan following the prototype in a specific area I failed. I was so brave and called my yard some time ago the A yard but I dropped that when I got information about the prototype tracks and their usage. No change to be even close to the prototype.
I could not develop a track plan that is close enough to the prototype to be worth to totally redo my layout.

My overall approach wouldn't be too different from what you have now -- there aren't too many magic options for the track plan,...

That is the second key problem. There are a lot of very nice and unique locations around Vernon. Like the crossings you show. My problem is to select industries still served by rail and suitable for the space. Fibers is for sure a good candidate. I had the building left to the box car on an earlier layout but it is not rail served anymore.

I agree with your suggestions. I am still searching for a prototype transforming into a track plan that
1. maintains the conceptual operation in that area
2. has some of the typical aspects (crossings, sidewalks in Vernon ...)
3. supports three to four prototypical industries that can be shrunk and cut into the available space. The geometry of the layout asks for long narrow industries.

Just got your second posting.
The transfer jobs are a great conceptional feature and an awful pain. I am very uncomfortable running transfer jobs with 4 cars only. That is the reason why I concentrate on industry serving jobs only.
The other side of the room is "off limits" for the next time. I have to remove all the furniture to access it. The entire area was used as a street running harbor area. All tracks are buried in plaster. It will be areal mess to clean it up. That must wait until I am retired.
The Genset (combined with GP15, GP38 and GP60M) are my favorite but they are an example only. UP and BNSF/LAJ runs today almost all jobs with two engines.

A very interesting outcome of this discussion is the approach not to select one area with industries and tracks to model but select suitable industries and locations all over the area and mix and blend them together. e.g. Fiber is a nice industry but it was dropped because there is nothing around to build a layout. With the new approach I may pick Fiber and put it next to e.g. a micro version of A yard.

[Catt]

Reinhard,if you were to come over to the "Normal Scale" You could get a lot more varieity in that space. :mrgreen:

[faraway]

Reinhard,if you were to come over to the "Normal Scale" You could get a lot more varieity in that space. :mrgreen:

No problem. What is the postal address of the normal scale shop to get a set of new eyes and hands in normal scale....

[Catt]

Don't know never been there .At my age it is cheaper to take off my glasses and grab the bottle of Arthritis strength Tylenol. :mrgreen:

[jwb]

I wouldn't be too squeamish about what you call the yard. Remember that you can issue multiple "employee timetables" giving locations different names -- it's your layout. As far as industries, I think there are a couple of ideas right here, City Fibers (still rail served) and the Grayn Company (also rail served, and could be located on one of your curves, worked in one session, not in another). If you want a modern industry, you have Mobil Lubricants, which is served by BNSF and I think also from LAJ on the east end. But here's an oil loading platform at Watson Yard in the Harbor area (other end of the Harbor Sub):

   

There are a number of other tank car industries in the Vernon area, a Cargill facility off the joint LAJ-UP track to the northwest (apparently this is going to close, but is post 2005). Darling International on the BNSF. You could have a team track/transload that would be a combination of the Ancon/BNSF facility and the LAJ facilities at Fruitland. But I don't see why you would need to put long industries on your back wall -- have two, served by two spurs reached via crossings.

Here's a shot into A Yard:

   

Note the BNSF GEs laying over. Other BNSF power lays over on he lead into C Yard:

   

There's scope for doing more than just switching industries.

It also occurs to me that there are in fact changes in level on the LAJ:

   

A scenic treatment like this would increase the apparent size of the layout.

[lajry]

Since Amtrak's 8th St yard has a wheel pit, they do alot of wheel turning for west coast RRs. So seeing a PHL loco there isn't all that unusual. Alot of Amtrak locos from Oakland & PNW show up also. & come via Coast Starlight.

BTW JWB's map of the LAJ comes from Charlie Slater's Warbonnet article Oct. 2003

[jwb]

Regarding the idea of using a main line curve as an industry track in one session and a main line track in another, a couple other things occurred to me. One is that the LAJ is doing essentially just that here: The Grayn Company is on a lead that used to run all the way around the curve to serve warehouses to the west. With those out of use, they put the industry right there. Should, on the off chance, those industries go back to rail service, the LAJ would presumably work something out with the Grayn Company. (I wouldn't be surprised if this were in a contract.)

But then this goes to one of the peculiar ideas I keep running into in Lance Mindheim's blog. He says that an operating session should only last about 45 minutes. I think he says this partly because he thinks that's as long as it takes to switch a simple ISL, and if you go back tomorrow night, you're just going to run the same plan, maybe with different cars. But what if, in one 45 minute session, you switch some industries, and then the next night you run a transfer out of staging and pull a cut and take it back into staging? That means you can use the curved main line track as an industry one night and as main the next. (For that matter, run two transfers, one BNSF and one UP. Just be sure you have 3 or more yard tracks.)

I think not enough people think about the variety possible in any but the very smallest layouts. Yours is enough larger that there's lots of conceptual room to do more.

[jwb]

Also, the photo of A yard reminds me of another operating possibility: several LAJ yards are used for storing empty double stack cars. Some are sitting here on an A Yard track -- it sounds like more can be found at C Yard and elsewhere from Freericks's book. So you can include stack cars in your transfers, and essentially treat a yard track as an industry. This would be a reason to work in 4 or more yard tracks, which ought to be possible if you have that 2-foot width. I'd be inclined to use space on a small layout as much as possible for useful trackage, rather than space you're always sort of at a loss to do something else with. As far as double stack wells, of course, a single set of 5 would take up most of one staging track, but there are always single units or triple units. Bare table operations are a vey common feature in the LA area. But stored empty box and centerbeam cars are also common and could certainly be worked into operations, giving you yet more variety. And the centerbeams don't need to be loaded!