How much can we justify spending?

[MountainMan]

Well, when almost everything is made in China...

[Green_Elite_Cab]

So the answer to your question is that there is an increasing number of people who will justify any expenditure in pursuit of this hobby, and it is skewing the marketplace for the rest of us.

I agree.

I know I'm part of the problem.

The issue for me is that I KNOW what I want to model, and a lot of it is difficult to find, or limited in production. If I don't pick it up when I see it, its frequently not available ever again.

Even if I do find that particular item again, it tends to go for WAY more than I originally would have had to pay for it. For example, My Brass E44s each cost close to a sound equipped diesel, spread out over a few months.

The next time I saw one of those for sale, they wanted $500, then they wanted $700. The last time I saw one for sale, they wanted $5,000!

For the lines I model, the E44s are some of the "Main Characters", and it wouldn't look right without them. It did cost me a bit to acquire them but I think that is justified.

[Steamtrains]

Early Bachmanns were pretty much junk. I purchased a couple waaaay back...Now they sit at a RIP track just looking good.

I was hesitant to purchase any more, but when the "revised" versions came out (the DCC line) I took the plunge and bought a 4-8-2, and was pleasantly surprised.
So I went and bought a 2-8-4. That one too is really nice.

Their decoders aren't worth a pitcher of warm spit, so I changed them out to D'trx...

[ngauger]

I build as much as I can. I find it enjoyable and satisfying that I can create things to my exact specifications and sometimes at 1/10 the cost

The only thing I could ever see spending anything over $200.00 for would be a 3D printer.... so I can create even more things.

[Brakie]

I don't even know where to begin with Bachmann, but you certainly don't need to own a Bachmann engine to see the problems. Most of the Spectrum models at least run alright, but almost all of their models suffer from really, REALLY simple but difficult to correct errors, particularly concerning paint schemes. Bachmann does a miserable job on research.
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GEC,With Bachmann's simplicity and lower prices those wrong paint jobs can be corrected just like the old Athearn BB paint mistakes, some paint stripper, paint and decals can and will work wonders.

There are those among us that readily points out mistakes with Atlas,Walthers P1K and P2K,Kato,Athearn RTR and Geneses.They are some that won't touch a MTH or BLI locomotive with a ten foot long brakeman's club.

[Green_Elite_Cab]

GEC,With Bachmann's simplicity and lower prices those wrong paint jobs can be corrected just like the old Athearn BB paint mistakes, some paint stripper, paint and decals can and will work wonders.

There are those among us that readily points out mistakes with Atlas,Walthers P1K and P2K,Kato,Athearn RTR and Geneses.They are some that won't touch a MTH or BLI locomotive with a ten foot long brakeman's club.

The point though, was that the term "Botchmann" is somewhat justified. While many manufacturers make many mistakes, Bachmann seems to specialize in making a well proportioned and acceptably detailed model, and then slapping on some imaginary paint scheme. To add insult to injury, Bachmann's lettering tends tougher to remove than other manufacturers.

Bonus points when Bachmann claims to have photos of something that doesn't exist when someone complains on their forums (I've seen this at least once. Proto 2K did this to me once also, so its not just Bachmann).

The E33 and Amfleets are perfect examples of this. The E33s are porportionally superior to the brass versions, and the details are VERY competitive. Though there are some details differences, these I think have more to do with their mass produced nature than "mistakes" (for example, the all the models have Power bus connectors on the roof, though I suspect only the New Haven used these, and the Penn Central removed them regardless). Ultimately, its a fantastic model and I am happy with them over all.

The $50 Bachmann amfleets I cars are a similar story. Until the Walthers Proto Amfleet Is that just came out last month, these were the best proportion Amfleet I cars you could get. However, every single one had flaws in their paint and/or lettering. In the case of the Phase II cars I have, the paint job applied to them is closer to the Phase III and does not resemble Phase II at all. This would be a fairly involved process, made more difficult by the lack of Phase II passenger car striping and the disappearance of the Floquil/Polly Scale Amtrak colors.


The E33s have been marked down lately, but the amfleets have been consistently in the $45-$50 range, so i'm not sure a case can be made that they are comparable to blue box kits. Most locomotives Bachmann sells cost quite abit more than the Blue Box engines did, and in many cases, they are proportionally inferior to the Athearn equivalents.

[Brakie]

they are proportionally inferior to the Athearn equivalents.
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Actually the BB locomotives and cars was pretty generic exception being some of the newer(the scale hood engines) releases like the SW1500,SW100,SD40-2,GP40-2 and the near generic GP50/60..The BB GP38-2 remains the best GP38-2 shell on the market.

Sadly Athearn has botch some paint schemes on the Genesis locomotives and the QA/QC is spotty at best and these are Athearn's top of the line.Their RTR has spotty QA/QC as well.

The good news is Athearn QA/QC issues is improving.

Here's a example of Athearn lagging QA/QC. Note the headlights.

Athearn did send free replacement handrails after I advised them of the problem..

[Sumpter250]

this one for only $6,195......
OK, In my lifetime in this hobby, I suppose I may have spent that much money - - - - - but that covers locomotives, rolling stock, scenery material, track, power supplies, and a ton of kits !! All my brass locomotives put together, cost me less than half of that one price tag.

this one for only $6,195......
This, is why I learned, at an early age, how to scratch build, so many different things !
Like most of us, I am not "made of money", like the "GEICO Motorcycle Money Man" hock: hock:

[ezdays]

this one for only $6,195......
OK, In my lifetime in this hobby, I suppose I may have spent that much money - - - - - but that covers locomotives, rolling stock, scenery material, track, power supplies, and a ton of kits !! All my brass locomotives put together, cost me less than half of that one price tag.

this one for only $6,195......
This, is why I learned, at an early age, how to scratch build, so many different things !
Like most of us, I am not "made of money", like the "GEICO Motorcycle Money Man" hock: hock:

You know the sad thing about it is that for over 6-grand, you still don't have a working model. At least all the Bachmann and Life-Like engines run on their own even though they are at the other end of the price spectrum from this one. For that kind of money, that sucker had better be able to move some dirt.

[scubadude]

I quit trying to justify spending $$$ on mrr a long time ago...if it feels good, DO IT

[Green_Elite_Cab]

they are proportionally inferior to the Athearn equivalents.
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Actually the BB locomotives and cars was pretty generic exception being some of the newer(the scale hood engines) releases like the SW1500,SW100,SD40-2,GP40-2 and the near generic GP50/60..The BB GP38-2 remains the best GP38-2 shell on the market.

Yes, ignoring the older wide body shells (and there were scale width Rail Power Products shells for that), Athearn is pretty good. In fact, generic is just how I like my models. As long as they get the basic proportions right, and don't try to add a crap ton of unnecessary molded on detail, I'm happy. They might not have been 100% accurate, but they weren't quite "wrong". In many cases, you could just replace the generic details with more accurate ones from Detail Associated or Details West, or where ever. It might not even be necessary to do major work to the model itself in many cases.

As far as comparing them to Bachmann... just put an Athearn GP40-2 next to the Bachmann one. As you've noted, the athearn GP38-2 is pretty fantastic. Ultimately, You could probably pick up a blue box GP40-2, fix it up yourself, add a decoder and details, and still cost less than buying the DCC On board while having a much nicer model.

Sadly Athearn has botch some paint schemes on the Genesis locomotives and the QA/QC is spotty at best and these are Athearn's top of the line.Their RTR has spotty QA/QC as well.

The good news is Athearn QA/QC issues is improving.

Here's a example of Athearn lagging QA/QC. Note the headlights.

Athearn did send free replacement handrails after I advised them of the problem..

I've heard of a lot of complaints on the internet, but I personally have only encountered two issues, one with an MRC Sound decoder for the SD45-2 (apparently, MRC sound decoders are inherently unreliable), and my GP15-1 arrived with the roof of the hood partially pressed into the body shell, but it wasn't bad enough to justify sending it back.

Still, these are mostly issues with the factory, things like the paint jobs and the actual shape of the models are things that should be done right on the drawing board. This is why I am less forgiving for these sorts of mistakes.

[eightyeightfan1]

I use to buy the Athearn BB GP-35 locos all the time. Did I really care that the hood was 6" too wide or that the fans were the wrong diameter, or the lettering was 4" lower than the prototype. No! They ran good, were strong pullers. I couldn't justify the $800 for the brass version, just because they were protypical, and didn't have a chunky casting. Now today, do I really want to drop $200-$300 for a loco just cause it has "prototype specifc" detail and a DCC decoder. I could care less if one railroad uses a firecracker antenna on a GEVO, while another railroad uses a shark fin antenna, and my layout is still DC. Even if I was modeling one of those railroads mentioned, I don't think I would care. Besides, when the train is rolling around the layout, who's gonna see the small "protoypical specific" detail. Kind of like Athearn adding roller bearings to their rolling stock that actually rotate. Yeah its a neat detail, but you're not going too see it when the rolling stock is moving, and the bearings aren't going to be moving while in the car is spotted in a siding. Maybe it's just my personel preference, but as long as it looks good enough, operates good, it works for me. Besides, I'm not letting a rivet counter pick up one of my locos, let alone put his scale ruler to it.

Would I like DCC layout? Yeah. But I started building my layout when DCC was just coming of age. Converting twenty locos, especially all the Athearn BB's, to DCC is just not justifiable right now. My layout operates good, I can run my locos in a consist without having to worry about programming, and I can't justify the cost of dropping $40-$50 for a decoder, or the hundreds of dollars needed to convert the layout to DCC. Maybe on the next layout.

Ok. I'll get off the soap box now.

[Brakie]

Ed,I use a simple form of DCC since I have five DCC and one DCC/Sound equipped locomotives. I use a MRC Tech 6 for my DCC needs-I only run one engine at a time anyway..I do have the T6 hand held throttle for ease of operation-no longer do I need to leave the T6 walk 4 feet to throw a switch and return only to repeat the moves until I finish the switching move.

Yes,a powered switch and KD magnets would have worked just as easily.

[Green_Elite_Cab]

I use to buy the Athearn BB GP-35 locos all the time. Did I really care that the hood was 6" too wide or that the fans were the wrong diameter, or the lettering was 4" lower than the prototype. No! They ran good, were strong pullers. I couldn't justify the $800 for the brass version, just because they were protypical, and didn't have a chunky casting. Now today, do I really want to drop $200-$300 for a loco just cause it has "prototype specifc" detail and a DCC decoder. I could care less if one railroad uses a firecracker antenna on a GEVO, while another railroad uses a shark fin antenna, and my layout is still DC. Even if I was modeling one of those railroads mentioned, I don't think I would care. Besides, when the train is rolling around the layout, who's gonna see the small "protoypical specific" detail. Kind of like Athearn adding roller bearings to their rolling stock that actually rotate. Yeah its a neat detail, but you're not going too see it when the rolling stock is moving, and the bearings aren't going to be moving while in the car is spotted in a siding. Maybe it's just my personel preference, but as long as it looks good enough, operates good, it works for me. Besides, I'm not letting a rivet counter pick up one of my locos, let alone put his scale ruler to it.

Would I like DCC layout? Yeah. But I started building my layout when DCC was just coming of age. Converting twenty locos, especially all the Athearn BB's, to DCC is just not justifiable right now. My layout operates good, I can run my locos in a consist without having to worry about programming, and I can't justify the cost of dropping $40-$50 for a decoder, or the hundreds of dollars needed to convert the layout to DCC. Maybe on the next layout.

Ok. I'll get off the soap box now.

You're pretty much right.

I have been VERY frustrated by the direction the hobby has gone towards increasingly expensive models for what I perceive as small detail improvements. Its actually kind of refreshing to see I am not the only one of this opinion. When I express it elsewhere, most people disagree with me, almost melting about "How much greater the hobby is now than it was", and telling me If I don't like, don't buy it.


However, what options are left out there? The blue-box kits are drying up. Good starting points for future projects are getting tough to find. Even the most basic models, like those Comet commuter cars that started at $25, now command horrific prices on Ebay.

I might not agree entirely on your stance about details, but then I have always enjoyed super detailing my locomotives, since I like the things that make them unique, and I enjoy learning about whatever it is I'm working on. Still, the lack of good, cheap, base models to work from harms me just the same.

(that said, those roller bearing trucks are painful. Those things are press fit on, and they fly off into oblivion every chance they get)

This RTR craze is probably what has lead to the slow disappearance of detail parts, decals, paints, and other useful upgrade kits.

[Brakie]

Ed,I still have 2 BB GP35s and 2 BB U33Bs..I also have several BB GP7s..

I suppose admitting to that I'm now on the "Not a real model railroader" list. :o :cry:
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GEC This RTR craze is probably what has lead to the slow disappearance of detail parts, decals, paints, and other useful upgrade kits.
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Depending on the detail parts you need Atlas has a nice selection at lower cost then DA and DW.

As far as decals check MBK.