Dilemma HO layout plan

[Canadian Atlantic Railway]

I had a member on another forum draw up a plan for me last winter for my available space and asked him to fill it with track and industry. I built the bench work and started to lay track but over the past couple weeks I have been spending a lot of time on Big Blue and have really enjoyed the ISL layouts on here where the less is more approach is used. My room is 12'.5'' x 8'.5'' and the bench work is 2' W and 12''.5'' L x 6' W across the top and 8' on the peninsula. This is what I was going to do



I would like to simplify things and go with 4-5 businesses with a couple of sidings for trans load operation/team track. It would be nice to have a small yard to store cars for the industry's as well as a loco service track for say two units and maybe a caboose. I think the 12'5" wall would be great for some building flats.

- single person operation
- four axle ALCO's for power
- single or two units for switching
- can do standard, push/pull or use a shoving platform
- 50' - 65' cars
- set in eastern Canada in the 1990- 2000 time frame
- branch line or industrial park
- thinking a fall setting

Industry's I like
- pulp loading/unloading
- sand/gravel unloading ( I have a Walthers Rail to road aggregate transfer kit <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-4036">http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-4036</a><!-- m --> )
- propane dealer (have Walthers kit and two extra tanks)
- grain elevator
- scrap dealer
- pipe manufacturer
- distributor receiving box cars or reefers
- plastic pellet transfer or business using them (Have Walthers kit)

I would like to use my track and switches that I have on hand which are medium Peco switches and Atlas code 100 flextrack. Any help, plans or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Catt]

Why not remove some of the sidings but keep the businesses as non rail served.Then eliminate the sidings against the long wall and use the back sides of some industries there that are not railserved.You could put storage ,RIP ,or maintenance tracks there and maybe a team track.

[sailormatlac]

Hi Stephen,

Your track plan remembers me how I started too. Your friend did pack the place a lot!

From what I can understand, your industries can be grouped in two types: those with dedicated trackage and other that are worked like a team track. Starting from that, I think it gives us a rough idea of how "to zone" the land available.

Eastern Canada railroading is often very diminutive in size and you really feel the railroads are sliming down operation and optimizing them at best. With that in mind here's how I would try to tackle things.

First, a connection to a main line were you can stage your incoming traffic. From it could be a few track branching out and used as team track to different customers. That's your usual old depot turning into a transloading facility. That place could handle non specialized stuff like gravel, pulp wood, even grain and pipes (whatever building supplies you want in fact). It could also handle a few oddball reefers, flats, etc.

Second, another side of the layout would be used as a small industrial park. No need to fill up the place with lots of industries. Try to get the ones that generate interesting operation. The plastic business would be a good candidate, the propane dealer, the grain elevator (not a western prototype for sure) and the logistic warehouse too. I'm not sure your layout could handle so many industries without looking like a Christmas village, but select the significant ones. In your era, many goods are trucked from a nearby station to a local industry. That's why the transloading area is efficient to streamline the layotu while keeping the traffic.

Your benchwork have two wings. One could the the mainline/old depot/transloading area/team track and the other one the industrial park. It would give you the feeling your train is really doing local work and travelling the town. The joining section could be left bare from any rail activities and depict something that catch your fancy. I call it a railfanning spot, something you like to watch your train run over in between operations. It can be a bridge, a crossing, an urban canyon, an overpass...

Should the transloading area be on the short part or vice versa, I can't tell, that will be decided by you and the size of your industries. But at a first glance, I think I would try to fit the interchange/team tracks on the longer part and nest the industrial park in the small one. The grain elevator, which are older business, would fit better on the mainline part of the layout and give some focal point of view on this part of the layout.

Since your benchwork is built and you have track on hands, I would suggest you to mock up things in real life. Track plans are nice, but if you put pieces of track over the raw benchwork, I think you'll start to see things. Parts of your structures, carboard tubes, nything can be used to mock up industries. I'm not in your shoes and doesn't want to impose my own views on you. But think about what you like from that era and local railroading, think about was is usual, normal and try to strive for this. A good idea is to think of your layout as a real railway, not a puzzle. If it was your company, how would you do the work? How would you serve the customers? Also, you'll see many things that looks simplistic on paper can be quite a challenge when done in real.

Basically, if you start with your original track plan and keep about 1/3 of the trackage, you wouldn't be to far from something that makes sense. I think it already have a strong core, just too much hair!!! Only one runaround, probably on the main line would be enough to keep things working on.

Good luck! You'll see, at the point you reached, things will start to clear up in your mind.

Best regards,

Matt

[LynnB]

I agree with what Matt is saying. If you have the bench work built obvious
Y it is what fits in your space. Also had a thought why not just freelance that way there is no pressure to follow a format. Not quite sure about your choices for industries for operations. Have you given thought to these industries of how they would provide service to each other ?

[NSHO]

I applaud the individual that designed the track plan for you. That's a lot of track/buildings/switching in a small amount of square footage. But I also feel that's way too busy and agree with Matt, it'll look like a Christmas village if it were complete. That layout may work well if stretched at every corner

I was/am facing the same choices you are making. I really wanted a yard to fiddle in. A place to break down trains, bring trains in from off layout and move engines around. My dilemma was getting the cars shuffled around and an engine in position to shove through the layout. And what I kept ending up with once I grabbed some cars from an interchange or sorted in my yard, was a train that I could have placed with my hands in order ready to be shoved. This was my keeping it simple that I just kept avoiding. I really wanted to have a yard and interchange, but couldn't make it work. I minimized as much as I wanted, leaving plenty of switching opportunities with 5-6 industries. At the moment nothing is crowded. This has been my journey <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://bigbluetrains.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=7761">viewtopic.php?f=46&t=7761</a><!-- l -->

I quick disclaimer, I'm not as well versed and have less than half the knowledge and skills as most of these guys (maybe some gals) on the forum. You will get and have already, exceptional advice from the members here.

Good luck and looking forward to us both working on a layout.

[LynnB]

Stephen after giving it some thought the way you want to simplify the plan, basicly you have an end to end plan there so what I would do is treat it more like a puzzle where you would need less industries to make it less cluttered but at the same time make it more difficult to pull a car(s) from a certain industry without moving cars out of the way. Not sure if your familiar with shunting puzzles I think there referred to. Hope this gives some ideas.

[lajry]

Here's a revision of Railnet's plan to get rid of all the switchbacks top & bottom. Yes modelers love them because it adds more "interest" to the switching. But why is it more interesting to just do more work. My LAJ Ry does have two switch backs but no cars have to be moved because each industry has has it's own spur. Not modeling those anyway because only have room to model 7 out of 22 leads. Only have room to fit that in a 10' x 14' room & still have room for 3-4 operators to walk around.
And no this was not done on a cad program. It was done in Picasa using the Text" part of it.

[ATTACHMENT NOT FOUND]

[NSHO]

Here's a revision of Railnet's plan to get rid of all the switchbacks top & bottom.

Nice revision

[jcj380]

Couple of questions:

Can you afford that many turnouts?
Can you maintain them?

Complex plans can be fascinating and can give you years (if that's what you want) of building. But what's the probability of actually getting the thing built and debugged? That's not to say you can't or won't do it, but I think it's important to look at things with a cold, objective eye. Might take some fun out of it, but it might also take some longterm grief out of it.

But it's your call.

[lajry]

What ever plan he does, he shouldn't "cast it in concrete" w/ ballast & glue. To see if that plan meets all his needs, run the heck out of it w/ tracks just tacked down. It's a whole easier to pull nails to move track rather than ruining most of the track ripping it out of the ballast & glue. ~|

[Canadian Atlantic Railway]

Why not remove some of the sidings but keep the businesses as non rail served.Then eliminate the sidings against the long wall and use the back sides of some industries there that are not railserved.You could put storage ,RIP ,or maintenance tracks there and maybe a team track.

I was thinking about that.

Hi Stephen,

Your track plan remembers me how I started too. Your friend did pack the place a lot!

From what I can understand, your industries can be grouped in two types: those with dedicated trackage and other that are worked like a team track. Starting from that, I think it gives us a rough idea of how "to zone" the land available.

Eastern Canada railroading is often very diminutive in size and you really feel the railroads are sliming down operation and optimizing them at best. With that in mind here's how I would try to tackle things.

First, a connection to a main line were you can stage your incoming traffic. From it could be a few track branching out and used as team track to different customers. That's your usual old depot turning into a transloading facility. That place could handle non specialized stuff like gravel, pulp wood, even grain and pipes (whatever building supplies you want in fact). It could also handle a few oddball reefers, flats, etc.

Second, another side of the layout would be used as a small industrial park. No need to fill up the place with lots of industries. Try to get the ones that generate interesting operation. The plastic business would be a good candidate, the propane dealer, the grain elevator (not a western prototype for sure) and the logistic warehouse too. I'm not sure your layout could handle so many industries without looking like a Christmas village, but select the significant ones. In your era, many goods are trucked from a nearby station to a local industry. That's why the transloading area is efficient to streamline the layotu while keeping the traffic.

Your benchwork have two wings. One could the the mainline/old depot/transloading area/team track and the other one the industrial park. It would give you the feeling your train is really doing local work and travelling the town. The joining section could be left bare from any rail activities and depict something that catch your fancy. I call it a railfanning spot, something you like to watch your train run over in between operations. It can be a bridge, a crossing, an urban canyon, an overpass...

Should the transloading area be on the short part or vice versa, I can't tell, that will be decided by you and the size of your industries. But at a first glance, I think I would try to fit the interchange/team tracks on the longer part and nest the industrial park in the small one. The grain elevator, which are older business, would fit better on the mainline part of the layout and give some focal point of view on this part of the layout.

Since your benchwork is built and you have track on hands, I would suggest you to mock up things in real life. Track plans are nice, but if you put pieces of track over the raw benchwork, I think you'll start to see things. Parts of your structures, carboard tubes, nything can be used to mock up industries. I'm not in your shoes and doesn't want to impose my own views on you. But think about what you like from that era and local railroading, think about was is usual, normal and try to strive for this. A good idea is to think of your layout as a real railway, not a puzzle. If it was your company, how would you do the work? How would you serve the customers? Also, you'll see many things that looks simplistic on paper can be quite a challenge when done in real.

Basically, if you start with your original track plan and keep about 1/3 of the trackage, you wouldn't be to far from something that makes sense. I think it already have a strong core, just too much hair!!! Only one runaround, probably on the main line would be enough to keep things working on.

Good luck! You'll see, at the point you reached, things will start to clear up in your mind.

Best regards,

Matt

Excellent points Matt

I agree with what Matt is saying. If you have the bench work built obvious
Y it is what fits in your space. Also had a thought why not just freelance that way there is no pressure to follow a format. Not quite sure about your choices for industries for operations. Have you given thought to these industries of how they would provide service to each other ?

There is no prototype here for what I want so it will be freelanced in whatever form I go with.

I listed industries that I like and have freight cars for. For a less is more approach only some would be modeled.

[Canadian Atlantic Railway]

I applaud the individual that designed the track plan for you. That's a lot of track/buildings/switching in a small amount of square footage. But I also feel that's way too busy and agree with Matt, it'll look like a Christmas village if it were complete. That layout may work well if stretched at every corner

I was/am facing the same choices you are making. I really wanted a yard to fiddle in. A place to break down trains, bring trains in from off layout and move engines around. My dilemma was getting the cars shuffled around and an engine in position to shove through the layout. And what I kept ending up with once I grabbed some cars from an interchange or sorted in my yard, was a train that I could have placed with my hands in order ready to be shoved. This was my keeping it simple that I just kept avoiding. I really wanted to have a yard and interchange, but couldn't make it work. I minimized as much as I wanted, leaving plenty of switching opportunities with 5-6 industries. At the moment nothing is crowded. This has been my journey <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://bigbluetrains.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=7761">viewtopic.php?f=46&t=7761</a><!-- l -->

I quick disclaimer, I'm not as well versed and have less than half the knowledge and skills as most of these guys (maybe some gals) on the forum. You will get and have already, exceptional advice from the members here.

Good luck and looking forward to us both working on a layout.

To be fair my friend designed what I originally asked for and he did deliver. After looking at the ISL's on the Big Blue I realized that it would not look very good and be a short lived layout. I am halfway through your thread <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://bigbluetrains.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=7761">viewtopic.php?f=46&t=7761</a><!-- l --> and appreciate all advice.

ote="LynnB"]Stephen after giving it some thought the way you want to simplify the plan, basicly you have an end to end plan there so what I would do is treat it more like a puzzle where you would need less industries to make it less cluttered but at the same time make it more difficult to pull a car(s) from a certain industry without moving cars out of the way. Not sure if your familiar with shunting puzzles I think there referred to. Hope this gives some ideas.[/quote]

That sounds like what I am after. A decent amount of industries without the Christmas village look and a bit of a challenge to operate.

uote="lajry"]Here's a revision of Railnet's plan to get rid of all the switchbacks top & bottom. Yes modelers love them because it adds more "interest" to the switching. But why is it more interesting to just do more work. My LAJ Ry does have two switch backs but no cars have to be moved because each industry has has it's own spur. Not modeling those anyway because only have room to model 7 out of 22 leads. Only have room to fit that in a 10' x 14' room & still have room for 3-4 operators to walk around.
And no this was not done on a cad program. It was done in Picasa using the Text" part of it.

[ATTACHMENT NOT FOUND][/quote]

That looks better already.

[Canadian Atlantic Railway]

Couple of questions:

Can you afford that many turnouts?
Can you maintain them?

Complex plans can be fascinating and can give you years (if that's what you want) of building. But what's the probability of actually getting the thing built and debugged? That's not to say you can't or won't do it, but I think it's important to look at things with a cold, objective eye. Might take some fun out of it, but it might also take some longterm grief out of it.

But it's your call.

I have had the track and turnouts for many years. I thought I would of had a large layout by now but the bedroom is what I have to work with for the foreseeable future. I have already decided that my "plan" is not going ahead in its original form. Just need to figure out a new basic version.

What ever plan he does, he shouldn't "cast it in concrete" w/ ballast & glue. To see if that plan meets all his needs, run the heck out of it w/ tracks just tacked down. It's a whole easier to pull nails to move track rather than ruining most of the track ripping it out of the ballast & glue. ~|

Another excellent point. track will be laid and fastened temporarily until the kinks are worked out.

[Brakie]

There is no prototype here for what I want so it will be freelanced in whatever form I go with.

I listed industries that I like and have freight cars for. For a less is more approach only some would be modeled.
==========================================================
Excellent decision to match your industries to your car fleet.

I'll toss this out as food for thought..
I freelance all of my ISLs but,I keep believability and plausibility in my planning and operation and I avoid tying any of the industries together..Industry A will never get a car from Industrial D since a local trailer spotting truck company could do it much faster and could give 24/7 JIT service and trailer storage if needed by using their trailers.A lesson learned while I was a forklift operator.

For my needs I found less is better and will add a transload track for my odd cars like bulkhead flatcars,gons flat cars and other oddball cars.

[Canadian Atlantic Railway]

Excellent decision to match your industries to your car fleet.

I'll toss this out as food for thought..
I freelance all of my ISLs but,I keep believability and plausibility in my planning and operation and I avoid tying any of the industries together..Industry A will never get a car from Industrial D since a local trailer spotting truck company could do it much faster and could give 24/7 JIT service and trailer storage if needed by using their trailers.A lesson learned while I was a forklift operator.

For my needs I found less is better and will add a transload track for my odd cars like bulkhead flatcars,gons flat cars and other oddball cars.

As a put the cart in front of the horse modeler I have many more cars than industries. If I knew 20 years ago what I know today I would have saved a lot of money that I spent on things I didn't need.

I agree on not tying the industries to one another. I am still trying to figure out what structures to use and the nice thing about the transload is I can swap out cars to keep the scene fresh with different loads. I am going to mock up a few things tonight and see what I can come with for a plan.