Every Track Powered for DCC???

[Herc Driver]

I've read various opinions regarding DCC wiring...and with my birthday present - a Digitrax Zephyr - on the way, I'm trying to figure out what to do.

The basics of the layout: currently wired for DC operation, Peco Insulfrog turnouts, no reversing tracks, 16 feet length/14 inch width dog bone with 4-ladder yard, 2 mainline passing tracks. Currently there are three powered track joiners located on a front mainline, front mainline passing track, and rear mainline, all near the midpoint of the layout's length. There are four dead-end parking tracks for car storage and access to industries that are accessed from the yard.

Here's my question....... Does every track (including all the branch lines, mainlines, turnouts, sidings, parking tracks, passing track, everything) need to be constantly powered? Or...can I leave one or more parking tracks that can be reached from a Peco Insulated turnout "dead" for parking DC loco's? My idea was to have a dedicated track where I could park a DC-only loco and not have the DCC power constantly trying to spin the loco's DC motor by using the Peco Insulfrog turnout to create a "dead" track off the turnout. I've read that several large club layouts employ this technique, since members frequently forget to "turn off" their DCC loco's when they step away from the operations. This gives the chief operator the ability to park unused engines on a parking track and "forget them". I have several DCC articles and a book explaining DCC operations, but they contradict each other. One says wire every track, the others say you don't have to. This leaves me confused. I plan to run mostly DCC engines with one DC engine from time to time. I know the Zephyr can handle this arrangement (at least the online manual gave me that impression). And from what the manual explained, I can also use my "straight-DC" power pack routed through the Zephyr as an extra controller operating one DC loco while the DCC cab operates everything else (I believe they call this a "Jumper" arrangement).

Any ideas or advice would be most appreciated.

Thanks guys!

[LynnB]

Very simple wiring for one dead end track for DC which you can also use as a dcc program track , I have a dead end wired up with a dpdt switch so that it can be changed to track off , track programming or track on for dcc power.



This second pic is a little less complicated but does the same thing.

[BR60103]

Herc: There is no law that says you must or mustn't have dead tracks on a DCC layout. The layout I operated on had legacy sections from a DC layout and it worked for us. I liked being able to isolate locos -- especially ones with sound.
There are a couple of instances where feeding insulfrog turnouts from the frog end gives problems -- In Peco's turnout frogs the 2 powered rails are often close enough that wide flat wheels will short across.
There are those who will argue that it's good form to power all tracks.
But you do need a separate track for programming -- I suggest one not even attached to the layout or at least not joined to the rest of the track.

[Herc Driver]

Thank you both for the quick reply. I had planned on using a completely seperate programming track (so I don't mess up an entire layout if something happens) and was going to wait to read the Digitrax book to figure out exactly how to do that. I think I'm going to leave one track "dead" - meaning only powered when the turnout is changed to allow access to that track. I'd really like to have some parking areas to leave a DC engine out on the rails.

I didn't think about the wheel size interfering with the current as it traverses the turnout. Great tip - I'll definitely watch for that. Would using plastic wheels avoid that issue entirely? I run very few Bachmann cars, which to my eye, seem to have larger and thicker wheel sets. Instead, I run a mixture of Atlas, Athearn, Deluxe, MicroTrains, Kato, and such brands. And it appears that they have plastic wheels, so would they act as an insulator and avoid the short circuit problem?

[Steamtrains]

Herc....You can definitely leave power off on one or several stub tracks to park your engines there. I have a few around the layout, but since I use all electrofrog turnouts, I have SPST switches to turn them on/off.
I also have an isolated programming track "integrated" into a section of the main yard and powered through a DPDT switch as described above. This way I can program locos and then change to "Run" mode to see how my changes work. If I don't like them, I just drive it back to the programming track, switch to "Program" mode and fiddle with it some more. Beats taking the engine off the layout every time you want to change settings....
Yes, you can use up to two DC power packs as "Jump" controllers to run whatever engine you want (DC or DCC). I have built my version of a "Loconet" with two hand-held throttles I put together myself working off the jump ports, and wired through a few plug-in jacks spread around the layout.
Here's a pic of my hand-held throttle...
If you need any help on getting your Zephyr up & running, just give a holler...Good luck..!!

[Herc Driver]

Now that's some thinkin'...using the extra power packs that way. I'm getting the Zephyr in six days (birthday present from the wife and kids) and hope to be up and running later that day...which might be some really wishful thinking - depending on how well I've made my track connections route steady power throughout the layout. I'll probably wait to hook up the extra DC power pack as a Jump throttle, allowing me to make sure I've got any power problems that might crop up fixed before allowing another source of power to enter the rails via the Digitrax. I guess I'll just make one of my parking tracks as the programming track since it's only reached by one insulated turnout. Hopefully, I'll be able to program on that track, then throw the switch and allow that diesel access to the rest of the layout.

If I run into big problems, I'll give a hollar...thanks!

[BR60103]

Herc: the frog problem can come from locos as well. It can be cured temporarily with a bit of insulation painted on the rails (e.g. nail polish) but I think that wears though. It may be wearing through the plastic that starts it.
Problem in DCC is that what would be a small jerk and flash in DC shuts down the whole layout (or district) in DCC until you psh the reset button.

[Charlie B]

Herc, Might I suggest that you wait until you get your DCC system before you decide what to do about a DC track.
Once you see how easy it is to use and the mystery is taken out of DCC unless you have more then 20 locomotives, you will probably want to convert all of them to run on DCC. (I would still want a track or two with a positive off switch though.) You will really like what you get.
Charlie

[Herc Driver]

Converting my entire diesel roster would be cost prohibitive, so running decoder-equipt and non-decoder engines is a must. I understand you can only run one non-decoder engine at a time, and for most of my operational ideas, that will be fine. (Although, if two non-decoder diesels are very evenly matched in speed, couldn't you run them together? They both would receive the same amount of electricity to move as one unit. Is the only limit to running non-decoder engines with decoder-equipt ones the amount of amps the system is rated at?) But you're right Charlie, right now the whole DCC concept is a mystery to me. I've read several articles and DCC books, understand the basic concept, but I've never installed a decoder or programmed an engine. I have more unanswered questions that answered ones. The DC layout I've created runs well, and with no polarity issues. So right now, I'm hoping I can hook up the Digitrax and with the two decodered equipt engines I have, get up and running quickly.

I have read about setting up blocks or power districts, and will probably do that for safety's sake. The concept seems easy enough...isolatinig several sections of track and routing power to each section. My biggest problem is accomplishing that task. The layout is a narrow shelf layout, 16 feet long, split into two roughly 8 foot lengths. I could take it down to floor lever to work on it, but that's a pretty large hassle. Still, if it has to be done, then it has to be done. Routing the wiring for the straight DC system I have now was a challange, so adding power districts would be a substantial effort. The layout rests on the top of five, built-in shelving units. I can't drill into them to aid in routing wires, so I would need to cut into the foam of the layout to place the wires for power districts. The way I see this playing out is...get the DCC system running, then take down the layout to the garage to work on adding the power districts, ballasting the track and adding scenery, then bring it back into the house to reassemble. Of course all this movement can lead to electrical problems, so testing the continuity of the connections from time to time will be a must. Since the layout's length runs from wall to wall and rests against the back wall, I have only one side I can work from. So even as I'm writing this, I can see that I'll have no other choice than to get the two diesels decoder equipt programmed and running everywhere on the track, then take it apart and moved to work on setting up power districts and soldered to lock in the tracks' placement. All the track is currently pinned in place and the buildings are not affixed to the layout yet. So I can take everything off and store it until the work is completed without any track moving around. Plus, taking it down will allow me to solder the back sections that run parallel to the wall where I couldn't get a solder gun near.

Well, thanks for reading this far...I guess I'm writing this down more to get my thoughts in order than anything else. But if anyone sees a flaw in my logic or better idea - let me know. And if anyone has any other great ideas, please pass them on. For me, going digital will be a big leap and see just how good my track laying skills were on this layout. I'm not naive enough to think that it's going to run perfectly right away...and I anticipate having to improve my track joining. I've already soldered some of the sections and I'm guessing I'll be soldering more to allow proper and even electrical continuity throughout the layout. But I'm really excited to finally have an operating layout that I've hoped for.

[LynnB]

Converting my entire diesel roster would be cost prohibitive, so running decoder-equipt and non-decoder engines is a must. I understand you can only run one non-decoder engine at a time, and for most of my operational ideas, that will be fine. (Although, if two non-decoder diesels are very evenly matched in speed, couldn't you run them together? They both would receive the same amount of electricity to move as one unit. Is the only limit to running non-decoder engines with decoder-equipt ones the amount of amps the system is rated at?) But you're right Charlie, right now the whole DCC concept is a mystery to me. I've read several articles and DCC books, understand the basic concept, but I've never installed a decoder or programmed an engine. I have more unanswered questions that answered ones. The DC layout I've created runs well, and with no polarity issues. So right now, I'm hoping I can hook up the Digitrax and with the two decodered equipt engines I have, get up and running quickly.

I have read about setting up blocks or power districts, and will probably do that for safety's sake. The concept seems easy enough...isolatinig several sections of track and routing power to each section. My biggest problem is accomplishing that task. The layout is a narrow shelf layout, 16 feet long, split into two roughly 8 foot lengths. I could take it down to floor lever to work on it, but that's a pretty large hassle. Still, if it has to be done, then it has to be done. Routing the wiring for the straight DC system I have now was a challange, so adding power districts would be a substantial effort. The layout rests on the top of five, built-in shelving units. I can't drill into them to aid in routing wires, so I would need to cut into the foam of the layout to place the wires for power districts. The way I see this playing out is...get the DCC system running, then take down the layout to the garage to work on adding the power districts, ballasting the track and adding scenery, then bring it back into the house to reassemble. Of course all this movement can lead to electrical problems, so testing the continuity of the connections from time to time will be a must. Since the layout's length runs from wall to wall and rests against the back wall, I have only one side I can work from. So even as I'm writing this, I can see that I'll have no other choice than to get the two diesels decoder equipt programmed and running everywhere on the track, then take it apart and moved to work on setting up power districts and soldered to lock in the tracks' placement. All the track is currently pinned in place and the buildings are not affixed to the layout yet. So I can take everything off and store it until the work is completed without any track moving around. Plus, taking it down will allow me to solder the back sections that run parallel to the wall where I couldn't get a solder gun near.

Well, thanks for reading this far...I guess I'm writing this down more to get my thoughts in order than anything else. But if anyone sees a flaw in my logic or better idea - let me know. And if anyone has any other great ideas, please pass them on. For me, going digital will be a big leap and see just how good my track laying skills were on this layout. I'm not naive enough to think that it's going to run perfectly right away...and I anticipate having to improve my track joining. I've already soldered some of the sections and I'm guessing I'll be soldering more to allow proper and even electrical continuity throughout the layout. But I'm really excited to finally have an operating layout that I've hoped for.

Yes you can run as many non decoder engines as you which as long as there not going to run into each other or if there evenly matched you can MU them. If one is faster than the other just put te faster in the front. Problem or more of annoyance with non decoder engines is they hum when there run on a dcc power layout.Been a while since I've ran non decoder on my layout but I think they go under address 0 or is it 3

For power districts you would need a electronic device such as a power shield 4 circuit breaker <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.litchfieldstation.com/xcart/product.php?productid=999002721&cat=0&page=2">http://www.litchfieldstation.com/xcart/ ... t=0&page=2</a><!-- m --> which would divide your layout into 4 power districts
In dcc really you don't need power districts unless you have some real power hogs that will stop the command station from starting up because of kick offs ( kind of like having too many things plugged into one house breaker) or if you have multiple operators and you have an engine short across a turnout and you don't want the entire layout to go down, I use a circuit breaker that seperates my layout into 4 districts and reason I did this was because I have many sound decoders and if I have one too many on any one district when I get a short the layout district with the short won't restart because of overload ( there are adjustments that can be made to adjust kickouts) , what I did was make the staging below the main level 1 district , the engine service area including TT tracks district 2 and the rest of layout district 3 and I keep the sound engines as seperate from each district as I can remember. Setting up the districts are just a matter of rail gaps or insulators then running each district buss wire back to the circuit breaker , the circuit breaker gets the main buss power direct from the command station, simple huh? Personally I don't think you need power districts and in your case the most I would do is install the insulators and this is easy especially if the rail hasn't been ballasted.

This link will answer many of your questions and concerns <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://litchfieldstation.com/DCC-University/University.htm">http://litchfieldstation.com/DCC-Univer ... ersity.htm</a><!-- m --> I've spent probably a few thousand dollars + from Bruce and he has been very helpful.

[MasonJar]

I think they go under address 0 or is it 3

For Digitrax (and others) it's address 00. 03 is the default for new decoders so you can check run them before doing any other programming.

I agree with Lynn's assessment of the need for power districts. For a layout your size Herc, you really don't need any. Unless you are going to cram a ton of locos into one end of it, all running sound decoders and using older, power-sucking motors, a 16 foot long layout should be fine with the Zephyr. However, one track that can be switched on and off is a good idea for the non-decoder engines - running a DC engine on DCC is hard on it, as you've noted.

What would be benficial is a large gauge power bus running under the layout, with feeder lines to every 3 to 6 feet of track. DCC is much more senistive (especially sound units) to interruptions in power, so you might want to consider that.

Andrew

[Steamtrains]

I agree with Lynn & Andrew.....I can see the need for power districts in larger layouts where more than 1 train might be operating at any one time and might possibly disrupt other trains operating on the layout.
If you generally operate alone, then, unless you do have the possibility of "major" current loads, (apart from the one train operating), you don't need multiple power districts.

[BR60103]

Herc: You probably don't need power districts yet. You won't need them unless you get to the point of having over 5 amps of load on the layout -- including standing locos with sounds and lighted coaches. If you go for power districts, you should think of where you may have big loads -- the engine terminal, the main line.
If you put a pile of DC locos on a DCC layout and run them on 0, it will be like turning all the blocks on for a DC layout -- all run at once with no discretion or discipline.

[Herc Driver]

Wow...great ideas guys - thank you very much.

I only plan on running two or three decoder engines, and maybe one or two straight-dc engines mu'd together. All my turnouts are hand switched, and there's no other power draw off the power pack (no buildings, no sound on the decoders). I'll actually park several engines at a time and bring them out as needed. Since my two boys and I will be running things, I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible for now. Maybe way later in the future, I might need more cabs and therefore more amps distributed around the layout. But for now, one dcc cab and a dc "jumper" cab will do nicely. There's just not enough room for people to walk around the layout since it's boardered on three sides by the room walls. So we need to stay pretty much centered on the layout, which is where the yard is and therefore most of the action.

Thanks again for all the great tips.

[Steamtrains]

Just a note. The D'trax Zephyr is rated at 2.5 amps...not the 5 noted above.
This should allow you to run 3 locos "comfortably" at the same time (which I have done), unless you have some really power-hungry brutes in your roster.