What dont you like about this hobby

[Charlie B]

I'ma grumpy old fart...I resemble that remark
Charlie

[MountainMan]

What is interesting about this hobby is that it has no fantasy modelers, except those interested in Thomas The Train Engine, perhaps.

there are a few great model railroads that border on character - with over-exaggerated features. Gorre & Daphetid, Franklin % South manchester. I am not talking just physical features, but cultural features as well. That is about as close to "fantasy" as i have seen (well, with the exception of tyco's turbo train and the Stiesel ). But, this is exactly what I am talking about. If someone could effectively incorporate a fantasy element to their layout - I would be extremely interested. Even though the theme may not be my cup of tea, the alternative approach would be quite refreshing.

[tetters]

No, no, that wasn't the intent. Being a white conservative male myself, I get darned tired of society blaming "me" for all the evils of the world.

Anyway, I have said enough. I am a white conservative male, and contrary to popular belief, I am not the scourge of humanity.

I had to laugh to myself when I read your comments. I work with an elderly gent who is very politically conservative in every way humanly possible. Listening to him talk, you'd think that the Liberals/Democrats were to blame for all the evils in our country and around the world. You can't even discuss a point with him, because no matter what, he knows more then you do, he is right, and you are wrong. Its rather annoying, and drives me crazy. I am his boss however, and have told him to keep his political views to himself on more then a couple of occasions. End of discussion.

I like to think of myself as slightly left of center. There are some things I can agree with on both side of the political spectrum and others that I just find plain lunacy from both sides. I honestly don't think there has to be one way or another, there has to be some middle ground, until you get self serving egos and personal bias buggering up the mix.

That said, I have learned very early on that if you want to be on speaking terms with most people, It is best not to bring politics or religion into the picture, but I never back down from a challenge.

So what does this have to do with my modeling? Being true to self, I have decided to model specific prototypes, be it structures, rolling stock, motive power...however have it all fit together in a totally freelanced fictional setting. This way I get the best of both worlds. Modeling prototypes, but not being restricted to what I can use to achieve that goal...within reason of course. Like, you won't see six axle diesels or big boys switching 40' box cars off my car float operations.

[sgtcarl1]

I agree with Charlie B. (see his post above.)

[yellowlynn]

I can't agree totally with Charlie; I'm not grumpy :evil: :evil:

Lynn

[Triplex]

Didn't realize the extent of a firestorm this would create...

I'm trying to reconcile your annoyance with nostalgia with your signature line that professes being a fan of the 40-50s PRR. Just kidding, but I am curious about the comment about an "unhealthy level" of nostalgia. Are you suggesting that the American tendency to model the transition from steam to diesel is overdone? Too cliche'?

More or less.

I admit my interests are influenced by what I've been exposed to, though mostly not first-hand. And I suppose I let myself feel somehow superior for treating non-local railroads equally - and I sometimes feel guilty for not giving some foreign railroads a chance!

I suppose I'm influenced by the perception that, at some fairly recent time, most steam-era modellers were old enough to personally remember it. I guess that isn't true anymore.

Interesting. In what ways do you feel you are oppressed?

On some forums, both some I'm a member of and some I just read sometimes, there are a lot of political statements. Most are conservative, pro-war or anti-environmentalist (except for being pro-rail). On sites which nominally discourage political discussion. I get the feeling that, if I were to make what I consider equally politicized statements reflecting my views, I wouldn't be welcomed.

[Gary S]

I get the feeling that, if I were to make what I consider equally politicized statements reflecting my views, I wouldn't be welcomed.

Okay, I understand now. I mistakenly read into your previous comment that these "evil guys" were going out of their way to keep you down. Like Scubadude said before, it is all in how you react. There isn't much you can do about the attitudes, so just ignore them. Enjoy the hobby, and don't feel like you are oppressed.

[MountainMan]

Didn't realize the extent of a firestorm this would create...

I'm trying to reconcile your annoyance with nostalgia with your signature line that professes being a fan of the 40-50s PRR. Just kidding, but I am curious about the comment about an "unhealthy level" of nostalgia. Are you suggesting that the American tendency to model the transition from steam to diesel is overdone? Too cliche'?

More or less.

I admit my interests are influenced by what I've been exposed to, though mostly not first-hand. And I suppose I let myself feel somehow superior for treating non-local railroads equally - and I sometimes feel guilty for not giving some foreign railroads a chance!

I suppose I'm influenced by the perception that, at some fairly recent time, most steam-era modellers were old enough to personally remember it. I guess that isn't true anymore.

Interesting. In what ways do you feel you are oppressed?

On some forums, both some I'm a member of and some I just read sometimes, there are a lot of political statements. Most are conservative, pro-war or anti-environmentalist (except for being pro-rail). On sites which nominally discourage political discussion. I get the feeling that, if I were to make what I consider equally politicized statements reflecting my views, I wouldn't be welcomed.

What do your politics have to do with your statement that "nostalgia is unhealthy"? Sounds like you are looking for an excuse to discuss your politics rather than model railroading.

[Russ Bellinis]

I've been away from the board for a couple of days, and returned to find this thread has picked up 3 pages since I looked at it last. I'm mystified as to why someone would decide that what others model would be something they don't like about the hobby? I can see where some might not like that the hobby manufacturers build models of what most modelers want to model, but perhaps not what an individual wants. On the other hand for the manufacturers, it is a business not a hobby, and they must build what will appeal to the most people to make a profit. I might like to see an accurate model of an obscure prototype from 1880, but if that is not the interest of most of the modeling public, the demand would be such that the manufacturer of such a product would either lose money or need to charge an outrageous price or both. I model what I'm interested in, if someone else doesn't like what I've built, fine I didn't build it for someone else.

[doctorwayne]

I can't think of anything that I don't like about this hobby. The things that upset me, I'd rather ignore than worry about them, the things that they don't make I either don't want or will build myself, or will do without. The people with whom I disagree I'll generally ignore, too, at least the areas wherein lies the disagreement. For the rest, we're here because of a common interest in trains of some kind, even those with whom we disagree politically or philosophically.

Rivet counting: This should always be a planning tool. It should never be a critiquing tool.

Very good point, Pete, and one of the reasons that I consider being called a "rivet counter" a compliment. No one has any business counting rivets on anybody's work but their own, and nobody should have much to say about folks who choose to not count rivets at all, either.

The nostalgia comment reminded me of a personal experience... I once took a sketching class, and the instructor had an exercise where we were supposed to sketch a coffee cup. "Sketch it as you see it", he instructed. He placed the coffee cup in front of a camera, and displayed the image via a large screen so everyone in the classroom was seeing the same image of the coffee cup. Again, the exercise was to sketch what we saw on the screen.

After 5 minutes elapsed, he went around the room and selected students drawings as examples for the class. Some showed the coffee cup from an angle where one could see inside the rim, others where the inside of the cup could not be seen. Some had the handle on the left, some on the right, some had the shadows on the right, others on the left. But they were all instructed to draw the same image.

The point was that many people weren't drawing what they saw. They instead saw a coffee cup, and drew what a coffee cup is supposed to look like (from their memory). I wonder if nostalgia and model railroading is the same way. Instead of recreating what was there, we selectively (consciously or unconsciously) recreate what we think is supposed to be there. In some instances this is manifested as "modelers license". In others, it is "selective compression", a side effect of having a lack of layout space. But in other instances we are creating what we think a model layout ought to have - tunnels, high bridges, happy people playing in a park. But that is also the best part about this hobby - it is our layout and we can create what we want, or what we like.

Good example, Kevin. We all have our own vision of what we want to model, be it a local line of which almost no one has ever heard, a fond remembrance from childhood, or a vast empire on a 4'x8'. The hobby is as personal as you wish to make it, the resources more available than they've ever been, and the know-how to get it all done is offered freely in forums such as this.

I think that concept depends on what you think model railroading actually is. If you are a strict prototyper, then what you seek to do is create a museum-quality model of a specific place and time. If you are not, then you seek to model an operating railroad with the "feel" and "flavor" of a particular era, usually bending history to make it fit.

Possibly, but a "strict prototyper" may be one more interested in prototypical operations than in an accurate reproduction of the physical "plant", and, of course, everyone has to accept, to the degree with which they're personally comfortable, the limitations of time, available space, and their own capabilities.
There are many modellers who model no specific prototype but consider themselves "serious" modellers, and many whose skills equal or exceed those of many "prototypers".

What is interesting about this hobby is that it has no fantasy modelers, except those interested in Thomas The Train Engine, perhaps.

I have to disagree with you on this one: I think that we're all fantasy modellers, with each version unique in some way to its creator. We borrow and share techniques and ideas, but use them in the fashion which best suits our particular vision.
If 100 people buy the same locomotive, some will see it in a similar way, and some others will see it in a different similar way, as there are always those who wish to "fit in". However, I think that the majority will see it in a way which fits into their own personal version of "outside the box thinking".
What is shown here in pictures is what each of us sees presented to us, but it's not necessarily what the presenter sees - interpretation is open to each individual, just as was the coffee cup.

I'd have to classify my own layout as a fantasy one: some prototypical aspects, some totally free-lanced (hopefully with some logic, although I'm not going to sweat any anomalies), a loose regard for geography and time, a few examples of "rivet counting" and just as many of a disregard for it. I've idealised a time before my own, with a prosperity and harmony where little actually existed, and a largely un-modelled populace with no need for political affiliation, racial differences, or socio-economic cares. My big business is generous and socially responsible, my unions reasonable and realistic. It never rains or snow, or gets too hot or cold. My steam engines never sully a line full of drying clothes, yet belch out enormous clouds of soot on demand of my demented mind. No fantasy modellers, indeed!

Oh, and those Thomas modellers? With Thomas serving as the prototype, Thomas aficionados are probably closer to a true representation of their chosen loco than any prototypers around.

Wayne

[Gary S]

There was an article about a fantasy modeler in MR awhile back. It was quite "fantastic" to say the least. Anyone remember that? it was a Mexican/Western theme, with banditos riding the steam locos, crazy scenery, these urban wilderness canyon sort of things, pretty wild. I'll see if I can dig that up.

[MountainMan]

I have to disagree with you on this one: I think that we're all fantasy modellers, with each version unique in some way to its creator. We borrow and share techniques and ideas, but use them in the fashion which best suits our particular vision.

I have to disagree, based on the practical definition of fantasy modeling and my own experience as a fantasy modelers in the past.

Real modeling is defined as a miniature version of the real world, in which the rules are already determined. Freelancers still follow the same rules as everyone else and model prototypical machinery, buildings and so forth.

Fantasy modeling occurs when the modeler first has to make up his own rules, and then follow them. For example, I once designed a model ATV for four-armed humanoid life-forms, complete with interior. There are no prototypical models for that sort of thing. This was part of a large diorama featuring five different "layers" of alien cultures, all different, and each based on a different premise.

[nachoman]

Fantasy modeling occurs when the modeler first has to make up his own rules, and then follow them. For example, I once designed a model ATV for four-armed humanoid life-forms, complete with interior. There are no prototypical models for that sort of thing. This was part of a large diorama featuring five different "layers" of alien cultures, all different, and each based on a different premise.

A thought just popped into my head... Has anyone ever seen a layout where someone attempted to model the future? Most of us model the past, in some cases an alternate past. Some model the present, but I can't think of a single model railroader who attempted to model what they think trains will be like 5, 10, or 100 years from now. Other model hobbies have future modelers. Plenty of people are building futuristic car, aircraft, or space ship models. But, other than a few whimsical trains with rocket engines attached, I can't think of ever seeing a future-based layout.

[tomustang]

Fantasy modeling occurs when the modeler first has to make up his own rules, and then follow them. For example, I once designed a model ATV for four-armed humanoid life-forms, complete with interior. There are no prototypical models for that sort of thing. This was part of a large diorama featuring five different "layers" of alien cultures, all different, and each based on a different premise.

A thought just popped into my head... Has anyone ever seen a layout where someone attempted to model the future? Most of us model the past, in some cases an alternate past. Some model the present, but I can't think of a single model railroader who attempted to model what they think trains will be like 5, 10, or 100 years from now. Other model hobbies have future modelers. Plenty of people are building futuristic car, aircraft, or space ship models. But, other than a few whimsical trains with rocket engines attached, I can't think of ever seeing a future-based layout.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.citypaper.com/special/story.asp?id=11116">http://www.citypaper.com/special/story.asp?id=11116</a><!-- m -->

“This guy wanted to combine trains with slot cars,” he says. “Because of the difference in scale there was no way we could do past or then-current [2002] Baltimore, so we had to be creative and imagine the city’s future. We built some current landmark buildings, but we also got to visualize fun new ones. Plus we took pieces of all these Star Wars toys and stuck pieces to the side of trains and other stuff to make it look all futuristic.”

I like the star wars part lol



I'm looking for more info...

Edited: Found it


<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.cmrtrain.com/cmr-train-future.html">http://www.cmrtrain.com/cmr-train-future.html</a><!-- m -->

[Green_Elite_Cab]

Fantasy modeling occurs when the modeler first has to make up his own rules, and then follow them. For example, I once designed a model ATV for four-armed humanoid life-forms, complete with interior. There are no prototypical models for that sort of thing. This was part of a large diorama featuring five different "layers" of alien cultures, all different, and each based on a different premise.

A thought just popped into my head... Has anyone ever seen a layout where someone attempted to model the future? Most of us model the past, in some cases an alternate past. Some model the present, but I can't think of a single model railroader who attempted to model what they think trains will be like 5, 10, or 100 years from now. Other model hobbies have future modelers. Plenty of people are building futuristic car, aircraft, or space ship models. But, other than a few whimsical trains with rocket engines attached, I can't think of ever seeing a future-based layout.

I did see a "moon" layout once, complete with "moon trolley" and light weight Moon-track. It was a Broad gauge HO set, but it was made here in the USA. i'll have to dig up the article on it. thats the most futuristic i've seen!

I once had a dream where i went back in time and modeled conrail (the future conrail) in the 1950s. none of the PRR peoples believed me when i predicted New York Central would merge. Needless to say, i made some profit off of those bets.
From that dream, i thought about it, but to in order to make a reasonable future layout, (at least in my view), i'd have to have a a finger on the pulse of where railroads are going. It would also be tricky since i bet i'd have to build some things from extreme kitbashing or maybe even scratchbuilding.

I Imagine that if i were to build a future layout, most of the passenger equipment would be replaced by Alstom and Bombardier equipment. I might even model a futuristic BNSF electrification idea that has been thrown around. (i've seen concept designs of Norfolk Southern Freight electrics based off of the ALP46 electrics of NJ transit).